Split post re: UK going downhill

[mummykay]

My main point (which continues to be ignored) is that hairdressing falls into an industry which is all about appearance and style. There are specific hairdressers for different styles etc - even "black" hairdressing salons who cater for those with afro hair. If I went to a modelling agency and was turned down because I didnt look right for THEIR PARTICULAR stlye and brand, it wouldnt make them prejudiced against me!! So why would it be any different for another company who operate within the same sort of industry??

 

[glitzyglamgirl]

The issue isnt about image or style, its nonsense that a hairdresser has to have their hair on display. You may aswell say someone has to be beautiful to be a beauty therapist - which while it may help is an outragous expectation and shouldnt be the norm. My OH manages a designer menswear shop so it "helps" if he looks good in the clothes they sell, but it isnt a pre-requisite to how well he can do his job.

The issue here is wether or not that was used as an excuse to turn the lady down, which I suspect it was. And THAT is whats wrong with the whole situation.

 

[uncle_bens]

I respect all forms of culture and love diversity but I also love my own culture and I think some people get so hell bent on making sure we change our own culture to accept everyone elses that we end up with no culture what so ever and everyone else keeps theirs going strong!! That is not a racist comment and I deeply resent the inference that Im a biggot just because I feel that THIS particular case is wrong. I am NOT against immigration, have many friends of different ethnic persuasions and employ foreign people and give them exactly the same benefits and rights as our UK workers!!

Why would you have to change your culture to accept others?

 

[annem]

I respect all forms of culture and love diversity but I also love my own culture and I think some people get so hell bent on making sure we change our own culture to accept everyone elses that we end up with no culture what so ever and everyone else keeps theirs going strong!!

i think this is my issue! We all have to be so PC now to the point where we are losing our own culture.

 

[glitzyglamgirl]

I dont see any evidence of us losing our culture.....does anyone have any examples of this?

 

[mummykay]

but to want £15,000 for 'hurt feelings'?

next its gonna be someone from the X Factor suing Simon Cowell cos he turned them down cos they couldnt sing!!!!

o dear, gotta laugh at this whole thread now

 

[glitzyglamgirl]

but to want £15,000 for 'hurt feelings'?

next its gonna be someone from the X Factor suing Simon Cowell cos he turned them down cos they couldnt sing!!!!

o dear, gotta laugh at this whole thread now

I agree thats a bit OTT, but that aside its still not right that someone would be judged on thier appearance and atire and not their skill and experience.

 

[Squiglet]

The issue isnt about image or style, its nonsense that a hairdresser has to have their hair on display. You may aswell say someone has to be beautiful to be a beauty therapist - which while it may help is an outragous expectation and shouldnt be the norm. My OH manages a designer menswear shop so it "helps" if he looks good in the clothes they sell, but it isnt a pre-requisite to how well he can do his job.

The issue here is wether or not that was used as an excuse to turn the lady down, which I suspect it was. And THAT is whats wrong with the whole situation.

That's the thing... the only reason why this case with the hairdressers has come to light is because the owner was honest and then the whole racism row came about.

At the end of the day, while being pretty to work as a beautician, having funky hair to work in a hairdressers etc... aren't necessary for a person to be good at their job, most bosses will discriminate against someone they don't think fits in. Humans automatically go on looks and well a muslim headscarf is an obvious outward symbol of difference. I see this all the time with my brother and sister, where people won't ask them questions about themselves (like whats your name etc) they will ask me.. but because people can SEE they have Down's they make assumptions and discriminate.

Most of the members on here are women... 50 years ago, we were discriminated against openly as not being able to do specific jobs as well as men... we know that this kind of discrimination goes on, it's just that the bosses hide it better... But is it true that we cannot do a job any less adequetely just because our reproductive organs are on the inside...??? No of course not And the same applies to this girl... it's just people will discriminate.

As for British people loosing their culture... if you are worried about the British culture dying out... don't worry come to Playa Flamenca... I can assure you, the British culture is alive and well and thriving here...

 

[Squiglet]

but to want £15,000 for 'hurt feelings'?

next its gonna be someone from the X Factor suing Simon Cowell cos he turned them down cos they couldnt sing!!!!

o dear, gotta laugh at this whole thread now

I agree thats a bit OTT, but that aside its still not right that someone would be judged on thier appearance and atire and not their skill and experience.

LOL if I'd have sued every person who has ever "hurt my feelings unfairly and because of discrimination" for 15.000quid... I'd be a millionaire...

 

[Jen & Her Men]

There is lots of evidence of it, St Georges Day not being celebrated in certain schools, many religious holidays not being taken as seriously - opening shops etc on Christmas Day, objections to the Royal Family etc etc.
Before anyone comments about this. I am IN NO WAY blaming immigration for the above!! Its a sad fact that these events are occuring though for whatever reason and I think that we do try and be understanding of other peoples cultures etc but I would also appreciate others being respectful of OUR culture too.

In respect of the comment about the fact that this isnt an issue of style etc. How do you know it isnt?? We havent got all the facts about this hairdressers. It is naieve to suggest that this is all about race and not style. I have visited many hairdressers who brand is EVERYTHING and its all about getting the "right" look for them, whatever that may be. Im sure as I said earlier, that if a white person had gone into the salon who didnt fit "the look" of that particualar hairdressers it would never have got this far and certainly wouldnt have made the papers.

I agree that discrimination is bad and should be stamped out. But how far do we take it?? In an industry like hairdressing or any visual based industry, there is ALWAYS an element of discrimination. I have worked in clothes shops where girls havent got the job because they dont fit the brand. I have seen pubs who only employ a certain type of bar staff. Where do we draw the line to say whats acceptable and what isnt?

I think there has to be an awareness of the real world here. Somethings are not just about race, they boil down to much more superficial elements and I think you have to be realistic and accept that we are talking about a hairdressing salon and I think you would find that people are hired and fired on a daily basis based on what their style is etc. This has become an issue in this particular case because the lady in question wears a head scarf so it becomes a religious issue. It has been blown out of proportion because of this in my opinion.

 

[Jen & Her Men]

Its like the peircing issue ...Ive been asked many times to remove the metal from my face if I want the job ...ok Im like ffs but Ive had to comply ... is this not similar??

Completely.

 

[Misslarue]

I dont see any evidence of us losing our culture.....does anyone have any examples of this?

Could be classed as losing our culture

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/6210532.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/talking_point/2597481.stm
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/a ... xpand=true
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/ne ... 293573.ece
http://women.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life ... 738220.ece

 

[Squiglet]

Its like the peircing issue ...Ive been asked many times to remove the metal from my face if I want the job ...ok Im like ffs but Ive had to comply ... is this not similar??

It's like I said earlier... I've got religious tattoos.. which are very important to me and are an outward display of my beliefs.. but there have been many jobs I've had to cover them up (not always easy when it boiling hot and your uniform is made of polyester)... I've done it though because that's my company's policy...

I should be allowed to display them... it's my religious right... but at the end of the day, its my beliefs not theirs and if I want to keep my job, I have to make sacrifices. Its not fair, nor right.. but that's just the way the world works unfortunately...

 

[uncle_bens]

blah blah

 

[glitzyglamgirl]

There is lots of evidence of it, St Georges Day not being celebrated in certain schools, many religious holidays not being taken as seriously - opening shops etc on Christmas Day, objections to the Royal Family etc etc.
Before anyone comments about this. I am IN NO WAY blaming immigration for the above!! Its a sad fact that these events are occuring though for whatever reason and I think that we do try and be understanding of other peoples cultures etc but I would also appreciate others being respectful of OUR culture too.

In respect of the comment about the fact that this isnt an issue of style etc. How do you know it isnt?? We havent got all the facts about this hairdressers. It is naieve to suggest that this is all about race and not style. I have visited many hairdressers who brand is EVERYTHING and its all about getting the "right" look for them, whatever that may be. Im sure as I said earlier, that if a white person had gone into the salon who didnt fit "the look" of that particualar hairdressers it would never have got this far and certainly wouldnt have made the papers.

I agree that discrimination is bad and should be stamped out. But how far do we take it?? In an industry like hairdressing or any visual based industry, there is ALWAYS an element of discrimination. I have worked in clothes shops where girls havent got the job because they dont fit the brand. I have seen pubs who only employ a certain type of bar staff. Where do we draw the line to say whats acceptable and what isnt?

I think there has to be an awareness of the real world here. Somethings are not just about race, they boil down to much more superficial elements and I think you have to be realistic and accept that we are talking about a hairdressing salon and I think you would find that people are hired and fired on a daily basis based on what their style is etc. This has become an issue in this particular case because the lady in question wears a head scarf so it becomes a religious issue. It has been blown out of proportion because of this in my opinion.

Ok, I do see your point and theres definitely food for thought there

I just think that if this hairdressers WAS acting out of a genuine branding issue, then fair enough - but its these kinds of things that can be used as an excuse for racism and/or religious intolerance. But then....going back to the fence....where do we draw the line then? The thing is, that we have laws in place to protect citizens from discrmination in the work place wether thats based on age, sex, lifestyle, disability, religion, race, or any other factor that makes one person different to another. Its called equal opportunities - and we cant start blurring the line because it is there for a very good reason. As soon as we start saying "oh but its ok in an industry thats all about image" it wont be long before its ok in other industries too and equal opportunities goes out the window. What will have been the point of the struggles of people to ensure we have equal rights and opportunities, if its one rule for us and another for them??

 

[mummykay]

theres muslim girls who i work with and they take their headscarves off for work then put it on when they go home

 

[Jen & Her Men]

I dont think taking out facial piercings and removing something which is a religious obligation is the same thing but im sure people are gonna say it is coz of choice blah blah

I think its a dangerous thing to start prioritising when people should or shouldnt be allowed to flout rules and regulations.
If a company has a policy and it exists for a reason that can be substantiated, should it really be flouted for ANY reason, including religious ones?

I appreciate that religion is important to lots of people but piercings may be important to others, tatoos to others etc etc. Who draws the line where to say "well clearly if its religion they should be able to do as they please in this particular circumstance". I think that religion causes many wars and problems because people use it to go against laws etc and it ends up causing all sorts of problems and issues.

Clearly, the validity of religion and tensions caused by it are for another post entirely. I appreciate that religion is very important to some people, but these people should therefore also appreciate that if they CHOOSE to follow their own religion to the letter of the law, then companies or other people may CHOOSE to follow their own policies etc to the letter of the law as well. This is why these problems exist. Im not saying its right but its the way of the world. If I was a veggie and followed that to the letter of the law I would accept that there are certain things I cant eat!!
The way of the world is to cater to the majority - rightly or wrongly. I think that our country does a pretty good job of integrating all forms of life and culture into our society. I just think that people need to accept there are limitations to that as well and as I said, repect the ideals of individual businesses and their policies as we respect different cultures and religions that settle here.

 

[Jen & Her Men]

There is lots of evidence of it, St Georges Day not being celebrated in certain schools, many religious holidays not being taken as seriously - opening shops etc on Christmas Day, objections to the Royal Family etc etc.
Before anyone comments about this. I am IN NO WAY blaming immigration for the above!! Its a sad fact that these events are occuring though for whatever reason and I think that we do try and be understanding of other peoples cultures etc but I would also appreciate others being respectful of OUR culture too.

In respect of the comment about the fact that this isnt an issue of style etc. How do you know it isnt?? We havent got all the facts about this hairdressers. It is naieve to suggest that this is all about race and not style. I have visited many hairdressers who brand is EVERYTHING and its all about getting the "right" look for them, whatever that may be. Im sure as I said earlier, that if a white person had gone into the salon who didnt fit "the look" of that particualar hairdressers it would never have got this far and certainly wouldnt have made the papers.

I agree that discrimination is bad and should be stamped out. But how far do we take it?? In an industry like hairdressing or any visual based industry, there is ALWAYS an element of discrimination. I have worked in clothes shops where girls havent got the job because they dont fit the brand. I have seen pubs who only employ a certain type of bar staff. Where do we draw the line to say whats acceptable and what isnt?

I think there has to be an awareness of the real world here. Somethings are not just about race, they boil down to much more superficial elements and I think you have to be realistic and accept that we are talking about a hairdressing salon and I think you would find that people are hired and fired on a daily basis based on what their style is etc. This has become an issue in this particular case because the lady in question wears a head scarf so it becomes a religious issue. It has been blown out of proportion because of this in my opinion.

Ok, I do see your point and theres definitely food for thought there

I just think that if this hairdressers WAS acting out of a genuine branding issue, then fair enough - but its these kinds of things that can be used as an excuse for racism and/or religious intolerance. But then....going back to the fence....where do we draw the line then? The thing is, that we have laws in place to protect citizens from discrmination in the work place wether thats based on age, sex, lifestyle, disability, religion, race, or any other factor that makes one person different to another. Its called equal opportunities - and we cant start blurring the line because it is there for a very good reason. As soon as we start saying "oh but its ok in an industry thats all about image" it wont be long before its ok in other industries too and equal opportunities goes out the window. What will have been the point of the struggles of people to ensure we have equal rights and opportunities, if its one rule for us and another for them??

I COMPLETELY agree with you Glitzy. I guess Im just realistic and understand that these things do happen especially in the visual based industries. It IS about where do we draw the line and i think its dangerous to draw it at religion because its a contentious enough subject as it is! People do tend to see this and use the religious card to try and get their own way - or £15,000 in this case. Its that I dont agree with.

 

[uncle_bens]

I cant be bothered with this thread anymore, its drifting into other kinds of territory and that i dont particularly like the sound of lol have fun

 

[Jen & Her Men]

J-Do1979 I love the way you put stuff ...its always what Im thinking but dont know how to say it lol. Guess some of us are doomed to have preggo brain.

aw shucks! Thanks Midna!