Thanks ladies , yep definitly crap , but you've just got to try and get on with it , we are going to visit the gp when af has showed her ugly face , we are doing everything we can do , I haven't been on contraception for 8 years , had dd 13 years ago no probs , ds took about 4 years just started the tests when I caught on , so maybe there is an underlying problem that needs sorting we will see , so hurry up af and let's get on with next month x x x