mohammed teddy bear *edit* poll added

[glitzyglamgirl]

The bible was actually put together as a collection of short stories, written by many people at many different times. In fact, some of the scrolls that made it into the Bible were what we would now call political brochures They were written by those frustrated with the political and religious climate of the time, and copied and passed among friends (not by zerox lol) some of them were seized and destroyed by the Roman leaders, others, such as the dead sea scrolls, were hidden and found within the last century.

As you say squig, what made some correct and others not?

I believe the scrolls that made it in where the ones that gave a certain perception of Jesus and the events in the bible. Scrolls have been found that are believed to have been Mary Magdalene's own words, in which she is an equal to Jesus, his lover and confidant, and looked on with envy and suspicion by the disciples. If it is a genuine scroll written by her, you can see why it was left out....the climate at the time was male dominated, and those pesky Pagans were cheeky enough to worship Goddesses aswell as Gods! Having a leading female figure in the Bible would not have been a good move as far as the Romans were concerned, as they were busy trying to stamp out paganism and rule under one male god.

 

[PinkPunch]

For example....the rods being thrown down and turned into snakes...in that part of the world there is a snake that when it feels threatened, turns as stiff as a rod, and could actually be picked up and held like a staff.

For a start, Moses had been a shepherd for 40 years.. I don't think he had been using a frightened snake all this time.

As you said earlier, you can't pick and choose which parts of the bible to believe.. IF you believe that these events did happen (ie. moses was real and was there that day), don't forget the verse that says Aarons serpent ate all the magicians serpents. So maybe they were all walking around with stiff frightened snakes which they thought were rods with eyes..

Infact, the magicans tried to copy everything that Moses/Aaron did.

Ex 7:8-12 Aaron's rod became a serpent - The magicians did the same - Aaron's serpent ate those of the magicians;

7:14-25 Water to blood - v22 "And the magicians of Egypt did so with their enchantments";

8:1-7 Frogs upon the land - v 7 The magicians did it,

8:16-19 The lice came - v 18 Magicians tried but couldn't;

8:20-32 flies - Magicians don't try;

9:1-7 livestock killed - Magicians don't try;

9:8-12 - boils - Magicians couldn't even stay in court of Pharaoh

Whats the different between the magicians and Moses? Moses got his power from God who was/is/and always will be, more powerful than Satan.

There is also a bush that spreads its seeds by igniting at a certain temperature (usually the hottest day of the year),

I would love to know what kind of tree this is and how it doesn't manage to burn its seeds, I know a fictional "plant" that does this.

So lets say your right. Lets say Moses happened to be on that particular hill on the hottest day of the year when this particular kind of bush went of fire and out of the bush came a voice.. and at the same time the bush was on fire but it didn't burn up.. that would take more faith than what im saying

Here what the bible says:

2 There the angel of the LORD appeared to him in flames of fire from within a bush. Moses saw that though the bush was on fire it did not burn up. 3 So Moses thought, "I will go over and see this strange sight—why the bush does not burn up."

4 When the LORD saw that he had gone over to look, God called to him from within the bush, "Moses! Moses!"
And Moses said, "Here I am."

5 "Do not come any closer," God said. "Take off your sandals, for the place where you are standing is holy ground." 6 Then he said, "I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob." At this, Moses hid his face, because he was afraid to look at God.

Its not hard for me to believe that God appeared to Moses through a fire, hes perfectly capable of doing it.. this is the holy God were talking about

This could go on and on.. every miracle could be discredited with "but what if" .. "maybe this happened".. please consider... "what IF it did actually happen and God IS alive today and he DID create us..

also the walking on water can be explained as the reeds there can get so thick and high that you could walk on them, giving the appearance of walking on water.

But that would make it a swamp!! The disciples were out in a boat in the sea, that alone shows how far out they were and how deep it was.

The Greeks sculpted him as a short, squat man with short curly hair

Yes, the bible describes Jesus as not very desirable to look at. Yet satan is supposed to be handsome.. why? Hes desceiving.

 

[PinkPunch]

We know "man" existed before the written word... even in Creationist theory, we didn't just wake up one day being able to read and write... so the only way the story of Adam could have been passed along is orally...

Not if you believe in God! (How would Adam have known how the world was made anyway?) It wasn't a game of chinese whispers, God told Moses what to write. Moses wrote Genesis to Deuteronomy.. and where do I get that from? The bible.

14 Then the LORD said to Moses, "Write this on a scroll as something to be remembered and make sure that Joshua hears it, because I will completely blot out the memory of Amalek from under heaven." (Its important to note what God said about Joshua as he was to finish the book of Deuteronmoy when Moses dies)

4And Moses wrote all the words of the LORD, and rose up early in the morning, and builded an altar under the hill, and twelve pillars, according to the twelve tribes of Israel.

7And he took the book of the covenant, and read in the audience of the people: and they said, All that the LORD hath said will we do, and be obedient.

27And the LORD said unto Moses, Write thou these words: for after the tenor of these words I have made a covenant with thee and with Israel.

9And Moses wrote this law, and delivered it unto the priests the sons of Levi, which bare the ark of the covenant of the LORD, and unto all the elders of Israel.

 

[PinkPunch]

The bible was actually put together as a collection of short stories, written by many people at many different times.

I would love to know who you thought wrote the bible

 

[PinkPunch]

Thats me off til Tuesday

 

[libs]

For a start, Moses had been a shepherd for 40 years.. I don't think he had been using a frightened snake all this time.

I am thoroughly enjoying the debate, but I have to say I LOVED that line

 

[glitzyglamgirl]

For a start, Moses had been a shepherd for 40 years.. I don't think he had been using a frightened snake all this time.

I am thoroughly enjoying the debate, but I have to say I LOVED that line

yeah thats a pretty good comeback, kudos to PP for that one

Your right of course when you say this could go on and on forever with what ifs etc, but its so fascinating isnt it?

I have read about the God Gamble, the stance that some people take is well you never know there might be a God, so its worth praying just in case, which is all well and good and absolutely no harm in that lol, however I have to see (or feel) something to believe it.

I have felt and seen many things that have convinced me there IS something beyond the physical (as in physical realm) and do communicate in a sense with some higher force, but it has never made itself known to me as God, just as something that is as much a part of humanity as the capacity for love. The spirit is an awesome power and something I feel every day, but to me it is not God....just...something.

Lets suppose for a moment, that we are both talking about the same thing, and every other religion or spiritual philosophy is also talking about the same thing...basically every person in the world who acknowledges any kind of higher power is talking about the same thing....but that higher power makes itself felt to different people in different ways depending on who they are and what would move them the most. IF thats true... wouldnt it be an amazing world if we all realised that?

 

[Squiglet]

We know "man" existed before the written word... even in Creationist theory, we didn't just wake up one day being able to read and write... so the only way the story of Adam could have been passed along is orally...

Not if you believe in God! (How would Adam have known how the world was made anyway?) It wasn't a game of chinese whispers, God told Moses what to write. Moses wrote Genesis to Deuteronomy.. and where do I get that from? The bible.

It doesn't say in the bible that Adam could read or write.

You also need to explain how cultures older than that of Moses which died out long before Moses came along and wrote the bible, how did they have similar biblical stories (namely the great flood)... I believe the great flood happened... just not in the exaggerated form it now appears in the bible. Mainly because of what I said before.. that the ancients did not have the scientific capability to explain these things.

If these cultures have similar stories, although not the same, it means that the word of God was not directly given to Moses... and that these happenings, were obviously spread orally... Also what is there to say, other than a book written by Moses, that he actually got this information from God....?? What if he didn't, but received it orally over time, but exaggerated slightly when writing it down... No one knows but it's a possibility.. Sort of an early form of Plagerisim so to speak... Also as I previously said.... the books determined as the Old testement were not agreed on until much later than that of Moses... why were only those selected books chosen?

Also going back... PP... (this is a question for Tuesday )

If you can only go to heaven by accepting Jesus.... would this not mean that all the biblical characters such as Moses, Adam, Abraham, Eve, Ruth etc... don't they by that standard go to hell because they never accepted Jesus as their saviour... For one, Moses couldn't... he was Jewish and Jews don't accept Jesus as their saviour but a prophet. It seems slightly odd that all those thousands of people born before Christ have to go to hell...

If their places were guaranteed because of their acceptance of God, then that means everyone has a place guaranteed if they accept God...in whatever form they perceive him to be in...

Have a lovely weekend PP...

 

[muppetmummy]

I have to see (or feel) something to believe it.

I'm the same. I was a total athiest until I saw the ghost of my great grandfather at the age of 17. That opened my mind to the fact that there is more to life than we realise. Over the years I've had several experiences that have led me believe that there is some higher force/a god that we cannot totally understand as yet with science alone.

 

[Lou]

I have to see (or feel) something to believe it.

I'm the same. I was a total athiest until I saw the ghost of my great grandfather at the age of 17. That opened my mind to the fact that there is more to life than we realise. Over the years I've had several experiences that have led me believe that there is some higher force/a god that we cannot totally understand as yet with science alone.

oooo tell us about your experiences

 

[muppetmummy]

I've seen spirit on a few occassions, on one occassion I saw a dark shape and although it had no features whatsover I recognised it and felt a rush of happiness and love. I'm sure it was my gran's spirit, I couldn't say why, it was just a feeling.

Apart from the first time when I saw my great grandfather (who looked like he did in life just milky and see through) which scared me cos I wasn't ready for it and hadn't experienced anything like that before it's never scared me. Whenever I've seen anyone or thing they've always appeared friendly and not a threat.

I used to attend the spiritualist church until I changed jobs and working hours and couldn't make it (the people there were lovely, just normal people from all walks of like, some of whom had gifts for clairvoyance, clairaudience or healing) and I went through a phase of trying to develop through meditation. During one meditation I was told that I was gonna have another child which is obviously happening I used to see a baby in my meditations and not long after my change in jobs happened which meant I could no longer go. I think that was meant to happen as my guides (I beleieve we have spirit guides who point us in the right direction, although ultimately the choices we take in life are ours) thought I wasn't paying enough attention to my physical life and want me to concentrate on my family for now.

I haven't experienced anything since then, or even thought that much about it to be honest, I get the feeling that it's not the right time for me just now, and my guides will get my attention when the time is right.

I probably sound like a nutter but I don't mind. I think everyone has to decide for themselve what they believe in and it's very wrong to force your views on anyone else. We're all here to learn and we can only do that for ourselves

 

[Lou]

I've seen spirit on a few occassions, on one occassion I saw a dark shape and although it had no features whatsover I recognised it and felt a rush of happiness and love. I'm sure it was my gran's spirit, I couldn't say why, it was just a feeling.

Apart from the first time when I saw my great grandfather (who looked like he did in life just milky and see through) which scared me cos I wasn't ready for it and hadn't experienced anything like that before it's never scared me. Whenever I've seen anyone or thing they've always appeared friendly and not a threat.

I used to attend the spiritualist church until I changed jobs and working hours and couldn't make it (the people there were lovely, just normal people from all walks of like, some of whom had gifts for clairvoyance, clairaudience or healing) and I went through a phase of trying to develop through meditation. During one meditation I was told that I was gonna have another child which is obviously happening I used to see a baby in my meditations and not long after my change in jobs happened which meant I could no longer go. I think that was meant to happen as my guides (I beleieve we have spirit guides who point us in the right direction, although ultimately the choices we take in life are ours) thought I wasn't paying enough attention to my physical life and want me to concentrate on my family for now.

I haven't experienced anything since then, or even thought that much about it to be honest, I get the feeling that it's not the right time for me just now, and my guides will get my attention when the time is right.

I probably sound like a nutter but I don't mind. I think everyone has to decide for themselve what they believe in and it's very wrong to force your views on anyone else. We're all here to learn and we can only do that for ourselves

Thanks for replying and telling us. I don't think you sound like a nutter. Weird stuff happens to me alot. Sometimes I think I can make things happen. Something happened a while ago and I asked for a sign, I suppose for comfort really more than anything else and I got one. It really freaked me out but it was so weird, I havent told anyone about it because I'm embarrassed I don't mind telling you lot though

My aunt is a medium and healer and I've grown up around ghosty stuff. She says she can speak with the dead and I was around alot of ouija boards as a kid but it hasn't really made me anymore spiritual than I think I would have turned out normally.? I'll never know I suppose!

 

[mummykay]

I think everyone has to decide for themselve what they believe in and it's very wrong to force your views on anyone else. We're all here to learn and we can only do that for ourselves

very well said

 

[Lou]

I think everyone has to decide for themselve what they believe in and it's very wrong to force your views on anyone else. We're all here to learn and we can only do that for ourselves

very well said

In an ideal world that would be great but unfortunately for some people its a case of 'my way or the highway'!

Not me of course, I'm very open to a different way of thinking

 

[mummykay]

In an ideal world that would be great but unfortunately for some people its a case of 'my way or the highway'!

i know so many people who have that mantra

ill listen but if its not what i think/believe then im not gonna worry my little head about it, everyone has their own opinion!!

 

[Squiglet]

I think everyone has to decide for themselve what they believe in and it's very wrong to force your views on anyone else. We're all here to learn and we can only do that for ourselves

very well said

personally there is too much grey in the world, for things to be totally black and white... Every day we learn something new about the world we live in and whats there to say that although we might not currently believe in something that our opinions might change in the future. We should be open to the possibilities.. to be so close minded.. to say one opinion is true, that all others are incorrect and that's that, denies you the possibility to mature and grow in a spiritual sense, to become more than what you are... I feel very sorry for people trapped in that mind set, because they can never truly appreciate the world around them. Its a big world and there are many things yet unexplained...and that's quite a wondrous thing to be a part of.. sometimes we just loose track and don't appreciate that.

 

[Lou]

I think everyone has to decide for themselve what they believe in and it's very wrong to force your views on anyone else. We're all here to learn and we can only do that for ourselves

very well said

personally there is too much grey in the world, for things to be totally black and white... Every day we learn something new about the world we live in and whats there to say that although we might not currently believe in something that our opinions might change in the future. We should be open to the possibilities.. to be so close minded.. to say one opinion is true, that all others are incorrect and that's that, denies you the possibility to mature and grow in a spiritual sense, to become more than what you are... I feel very sorry for people trapped in that mind set, because they can never truly appreciate the world around them. Its a big world and there are many things yet unexplained...and that's quite a wondrous thing to be a part of.. sometimes we just loose track and don't appreciate that.

True. It works both ways though. Alot of people are open minded and find religion but alot of open minded people also loose faith for one reason or another. Its just so happens in some countries and cultures we have the freedom to do this and choose our own path but in other countries and cultures such freedom is not allowed. This is where I think religion is a bad thing. Its used as a tool to incite fear and gain control and surely thats not what religion should be about. But then isn't the bible a book of morals?

 

[Freya]

I think everyone has to decide for themselve what they believe in and it's very wrong to force your views on anyone else. We're all here to learn and we can only do that for ourselves

very well said

In an ideal world that would be great but unfortunately for some people its a case of 'my way or the highway'!

Not me of course, I'm very open to a different way of thinking

I think you need to look at some of your posts and re-evaluate how open you are to a different way of thinking.

 

[Lou]

I think everyone has to decide for themselve what they believe in and it's very wrong to force your views on anyone else. We're all here to learn and we can only do that for ourselves

very well said

In an ideal world that would be great but unfortunately for some people its a case of 'my way or the highway'!

Not me of course, I'm very open to a different way of thinking

I think you need to look at some of your posts and re-evaluate how open you are to a different way of thinking.

Here we go

 

[Lou]

Right Freya before you start spoiling this thread again I need to say this...

I have just as much right to post here as anyone else. If you want to discuss topics with me then say something constructive. You have made a couple of snide comments to me since I posted your pm and I'm not taking you on. Nobody else on this forum has issues with me. We have a laugh and chat most days. I only ever see you pop up when theres something to moan about or someone to bully. You will not bully me and I won't stand for snide comments. If you don't like me then ignore me and I'll do likewise.