mohammed teddy bear *edit* poll added

[Misslarue]

So we know that by baptism all sin is washed from us... and is accepting God so to speak... if babies are too young to do this, and they cannot accept Jesus into their lives, then they too must go to hell..

Nope, nope, nope!!

See my above answer about babies and where they go

But as for infant baptism, its pointless basically. What is baptism for a start? Its a public expression of your faith and your descision to follow Christ in your life. The water symbolise the washing of sins, when you go back it symbolises death, and when you come up, it symbolises new life! Its not a magical thing where you instantly become a follower.

So how can a baby know this? A sprinkle of water doesn't put babies in heaven and indeed, when they grow up, it doesn't mean they will go to heaven either. Everyone needs to make a person choice which you can only do when you are older.

Again, there is NO scripture which tells us to baptise children.

So when a child grows up to accept Christ, God commands that they be baptised. Having been baptised myself, I found it a very close and persoanl experience and it made me happy to do as God asked.. regardless of it being just symbols.

I just want to point out that I DON'T believe that babies go to hell if not baptised... I've never believed that I was being more of a devils advocate ... I am pagan after all

The bible also has many things in it that don't make any sense.... why do we have to accept some passages of text and not others... what makes one passage any more "valid" than the others, if we still accept that God guided these men to write the bible. Just for example...

In Psalm 51:8 God breaks our bones when we sin .
Psalm 51:8 It teaches that broken bones rejoice
Psalm 51:7 Our sins are purged with hyssop not through the acceptance of Christ . (Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.)
Psalm 58:3 It says that babies speak and tell lies as soon as they are born (The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.)
Job 1:21 It says that men go back into their mother's womb
Psalm 51:5 It says the substance of unborn babies is sinful (Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.)

These are all figurative expressions, and to interpret them in their literal sense is to teach nonsense and what every person knows to be impossible and contrary to reality.

But what I am trying to say is that you cannot take one thing and not another....

I agree squig with this. The bible is full of verses that show a far less than loving and forgiveful god. People do seem to pick and chose or decide to 'interprept' it accordingly

"Take your son, your only son – yes, Isaac, whom you love so much – and go to the land of Moriah. Sacrifice him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains, which I will point out to you." (Genesis 22:1- 1 8 )


Laws of Rape (Deuteronomy 22:28-29 NLT)
If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.

Christians who are slaves should give their masters full respect so that the name of God and his teaching will not be shamed. If your master is a Christian, that is no excuse for being disrespectful. You should work all the harder because you are helping another believer by your efforts. Teach these truths, Timothy, and encourage everyone to obey them. (1 Timothy 6:1-2 NLT)


I really must stop reading this thread, I've done No housework!!

 

[lauramumof2]

Sacrifice him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains, which I will point out to you." (Genesis 22:1- 1 8 )

do you think this applies to any of my meals?

 

[Squiglet]

Sacrifice him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains, which I will point out to you." (Genesis 22:1- 1 8 )

do you think this applies to any of my meals?

sorry but.... certainly applies to mine...

 

[PinkPunch]

Squig,

Im not saying we pick and choose ANY parts of the bible at all, thats against what im saying.

You can't spring verses out of nowhere and say "they don't make sense".. they need to be studied and looked at in content. When you look at them carefully they make perfect sense. See below...


YOUR VERSE:
In Psalm 51:8 God breaks our bones when we sin - This isn't the verse, only your views on it but it was pasted as though thats what the bible said.

NIV:
8 Let me hear joy and gladness;
let the bones you have crushed rejoice.

EXPLANATION: The psalms is a very poetic book infact the word psalms means something like "sacred song" so this kind of language is found throughout all 150 psalms. It doesn't mean our bones break literally obivously. It sort of means, the "broken" will rejoice.

****

YOUR VERSE:
Psalm 51:7 Our sins are purged with hyssop not through the acceptance of Christ . (Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.)

NIV:
7 Cleanse me with hyssop, and I will be clean;
wash me, and I will be whiter than snow.

EXPLANATION: Again, the bible isn't saying a plant will save them from their sins and neither will we literally be "white as snow".

****

YOUR VERSE:
Psalm 58:3 It says that babies speak and tell lies as soon as they are born (The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.)

NIV:
3 Everyone has turned away,
they have together become corrupt;
there is no one who does good,
not even one.

EXPLANATION: Yes, the KJ version does say that and I agree that we are all born with sin. We inherited this sin from Adam and Even from the beginning.

****

YOUR VERSE:
Job 1:21 It says that men go back into their mother's womb
Psalm 51:5 It says the substance of unborn babies is sinful (Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.)

NIV:
21And said, Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither: the LORD gave, and the LORD hath taken away; blessed be the name of the LORD.

EXPLANATION: You only mentioned part 1 of the verse. The bible clearly does not say you go back into your mummys tummy.. its basically saying, that God can give and he can take away. The rest fo the verse says "The Lord gave, and the Lord hath taken away: Blessed be the name of the Lord"

Again, I don't know if these verses are to "catch" me out or not but each of them requires some understanding of the context and can't always be taken literally. Even reading the whole chapters gives a clearer picture.

 

[Misslarue]

Sacrifice him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains, which I will point out to you." (Genesis 22:1- 1 8 )

do you think this applies to any of my meals?

sorry but.... certainly applies to mine...

I'm sorry too

Don't know, but there are examples of animal scarfice in the bible.
God might be ok with it but if you took a sheep up a mountain, set fire to it and then ate it for your dinner, I'm guessing you'd be arrested and subjected to some kind of psychiatric evaluation!

 

[PinkPunch]

Miss L..

"Take your son, your only son – yes, Isaac, whom you love so much – and go to the land of Moriah. Sacrifice him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains, which I will point out to you." (Genesis 22:1- 1 8 )

Can't you see the point of this though? God wants you to trust him 100% so God gave Abraham a test. He commanded him to kill his son. He coudl have said no which would have meant that he didn't trust God enough.. but he didn't he thought to himself, I dont like it and I dont understand why.. but I will do it.. just as he was about to kill him.. God stopped him because he had shown so much faith. It was never about the boy actually being killed, but about his faith.

Laws of Rape (Deuteronomy 22:28-29 NLT)
If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.

Christians who are slaves should give their masters full respect so that the name of God and his teaching will not be shamed. If your master is a Christian, that is no excuse for being disrespectful. You should work all the harder because you are helping another believer by your efforts. Teach these truths, Timothy, and encourage everyone to obey them. (1 Timothy 6:1-2 NLT)

I don't knwo what you want me to say, we don't live by old testament laws anymore, we live by the 10 commandments.. plus we don't have slaves..

 

[Squiglet]

Again, I don't know if these verses are to "catch" me out or not but each of them requires some understanding of the context and can't always be taken literally. Even reading the whole chapters gives a clearer picture.

Ooo no not to catch you out .. and I agree with what you say... which is why i said.. These are all figurative expressions, and to interpret them in their literal sense is to teach nonsense and what every person knows to be impossible and contrary to reality...

They are there to teach a "theory" not to be taken literally. After all Jesus had many preachings used to instruct us with a story rather than to be taken literally...

But for example.... on the basis of original sin...

If we are to accept original sin because it is mentioned in the bible.. does that not all make us guilty of sin.. or sinful... which is why we need to accept Jesus into our lives in order to guarantee us a place in heaven?

In which case, it means that anyone, who cannot or will not accept Jesus as their saviour is therefore sinful and will go to hell? This is the Catholics view behind baptism.. etc.

The bible has several contradictions within its pages... mainly because it is a set of books, written at different periods of time, by different people, with different views. It is this that makes me think that to interpret anything in the bible as "law" is problematic... and in turn, if you are to accept one thing as law you must accept it all as law... thus you end up with contradictions in your belief.

I am not talking about faith in God.. or Jesus... but more religion in general. You can be faithful without resorting to the bible (I have a Christian friend who says the bible is basic nonsence and we should use it more for moral guidence rather than instruction... But she is very faithful... )

By using the bible as a means of quotation, is an expression of religion, not faith. i.e. you cannot quote something as fact without accepting that the whole bible is fact... which we know is not true for example the expressions I mentioned... as they are to be taken as metaphor. To accept the creation theory as fact, you need to accept original sin as fact, that hyssop will rid you of sin and make you white as snow etc...

For example of course

 

[PinkPunch]

Im gonna be here all night

In which case, it means that anyone, who cannot or will not accept Jesus as their saviour is therefore sinful and will go to hell?

Yes, apart from the "cannot" bit.. the bible didn't say that, you did.

This is the Catholics view behind baptism.. etc.

But its not biblical at all.

It is this that makes me think that to interpret anything in the bible as "law" is problematic... and in turn, if you are to accept one thing as law you must accept it all as law... thus you end up with contradictions in your belief.

There aren't contradictions but just some things are not relevant in todays world. Some laws were the law in Israel at the time like Deuteronomy 15:1 , "At the end of every seven years you must cancel debts." this was a law in Israel.. not the law in 2007 in UK. We need to figire out for ourselves what is right and wrong. We need to think if its a moral law or a country law. For example ""celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles for seven days after you have gathered the produce of your threshing floor and your winepress." its just a ceremonial law.

I am not talking about faith in God.. or Jesus... but more religion in general.

Theres no such thing as religion in general

By using the bible as a means of quotation, is an expression of religion, not faith. i.e. you cannot quote something as fact without accepting that the whole bible is fact... which we know is not true for example the expressions I mentioned... as they are to be taken as metaphor. To accept the creation theory as fact, you need to accept original sin as fact, that hyssop will rid you of sin and make you white as snow etc...

For example, becoming as white as snow isn't a literal meaning that you'll all of a sudden become pale lol, its describing words that we still use to paint a picture almost. Why is it difficult to discern whats what? We would say "Im as right as rain" - its just an expression of how you feel but taken literally it has a completely different meaning.

 

[muppetmummy]

This is a very interesting thread, and I think it's great that people can discuss their beliefs without arguing

My own personal belief is that there is a higher power (or god) and all religions are talking about the same god, the stories have just changed through interpretation, or in some cases on purpose by greedy people in order to get the masses to act in a way that is for the benefit of their own personal gain or to meet their political agendas.
I don't believe in hell or the devil, but believe in god. I believe that people are here to learn lessons, and will reincarnate until they have learnt what they need to know. I think that everyone is on their own path and must make their own decisions about what they believe in and not feel forced to accept a certain religion as the truth.
Faith is a very personal thing and something people must think about for themselves. I try not to force my own beliefs onto my son, but want him to think for himself and come to his own conclusions.
I think religion in itself is a positive thing, it can help people get through difficult times and they can get strength from it, the problems arise when people (especially those in positions of power) try and use religion as a mask for doing things which benefit nobody but themselves. This is what causes the wars I think, not the religion itself. It's people abusing religion and forgetting the message the religion is trying to spread for good

 

[PinkPunch]

Yeah I sometimes think people think they are fighting for their religion when really its about money and power

 

[Squiglet]

This is a very interesting thread, and I think it's great that people can discuss their beliefs without arguing

My own personal belief is that there is a higher power (or god) and all religions are talking about the same god, the stories have just changed through interpretation, or in some cases on purpose by greedy people in order to get the masses to act in a way that is for the benefit of their own personal gain or to meet their political agendas.
I don't believe in hell or the devil, but believe in god. I believe that people are here to learn lessons, and will reincarnate until they have learnt what they need to know. I think that everyone is on their own path and must make their own decisions about what they believe in and not feel forced to accept a certain religion as the truth.
Faith is a very personal thing and something people must think about for themselves. I try not to force my own beliefs onto my son, but want him to think for himself and come to his own conclusions.
I think religion in itself is a positive thing, it can help people get through difficult times and they can get strength from it, the problems arise when people (especially those in positions of power) try and use religion as a mask for doing things which benefit nobody but themselves. This is what causes the wars I think, not the religion itself. It's people abusing religion and forgetting the message the religion is trying to spread for good

I would agree with you on that Muppetmummy... Faith and religion are not the same thing.... You can believe in things that aren't part of a standard religion... As for wars... well they have always been created by crazy political power hungry men (yes men.. ) And religion as only been used to justify what they say.

PP...

Theres no such thing as religion in general :Wink:

I'll get told off if I specified a religion I'd offend someone somewhere

For example, becoming as white as snow isn't a literal meaning that you'll all of a sudden become pale lol, its describing words that we still use to paint a picture almost. Why is it difficult to discern whats what? We would say "Im as right as rain" - its just an expression of how you feel but taken literally it has a completely different meaning.

I agree with you... I really do...

Just what if other things in the bible are open to interpretation...are not to be taken literally, such as acceptance of Jesus will guarantee you a place in heaven... what if... for example.... it means acceptance of Christ throughout your life.. not just in the last moments.... Also with creation... What if the meaning behind day... isn't the 24 hour standard we accept today... What if it was a "day" of God... I would assume that God, being all powerful has no concept of an earth day, but would run by his own time table...

Don't worry you won't be here all night... I'm going out for Chinese now...

 

[uncle_bens]

or Land

 

[PinkPunch]

Huge discussion in this 1 point here really lol

Also with creation... What if the meaning behind day... isn't the 24 hour standard we accept today... What if it was a "day" of God... I would assume that God, being all powerful has no concept of an earth day, but would run by his own time table...

In heaven, one day is as thousand years BUT in Genesis a day is a day as in 24hours, why? Let me answer

The words day is taken from the hebrew word "yom" which means either a day (as in 24 hours), the daylight portion of an ordinary 24 hours or occasionally infinite time. Usually the word meaning a long period of time is olam.

So how can we be sure the word day in Genesis isnt symbolic and nto literal? Well, a word can never be used symbolically the first time it has ever been used! A word can only be used smybolically when it has had a literal meaning first.

E.g, the bible tells us that Jesus is the "door" and as we know, it means entrance. But because we know its literal meaning, we can apply it in a symbolic way so that we understand Jesus isn't literally a "door". Know what I mean?

God even describes to us what a day was.. Genesis 1 v 4 “And God saw the light, that it was good; and God divided the light from the darkness” called “night.”

And if that wasn't clear enough.. Genesis 1v5 “And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.” This is the same pattern that happened in all the other 5 days as it was the same cycle. So it must have been 6 literal days.

 

[PinkPunch]

Don't worry you won't be here all night... I'm going out for Chinese now...

Don't make me jealous, im so hungry right now!

 

[PinkPunch]

C ya all tomorrow, off home now.

Ps. Don't give me too many questions overnight

 

[Misslarue]

Night PP, good thread hun

 

[glitzyglamgirl]

Good morning

I could have had a lie in today but woke up thinking about this thread....how sad am I

A couple of things I think are open for new interpretation are the many seemingly magical occurences.

For example....the rods being thrown down and turned into snakes...in that part of the world there is a snake that when it feels threatened, turns as stiff as a rod, and could actually be picked up and held like a staff. There is also a bush that spreads its seeds by igniting at a certain temperature (usually the hottest day of the year), also the walking on water can be explained as the reeds there can get so thick and high that you could walk on them, giving the appearance of walking on water.

Of course there is always the possibility that things were exaggerated, or embellished slightly. The Bible was written many years (I think its about 100 years but could be wrong) after Jesus' death so there was plenty of time for the stories of the man to be twisted and made more exiting in the constant retelling. He wasnt actually painted until many centuries later, so even the image we have of him is unlikely to be correct. The Greeks sculpted him as a short, squat man with short curly hair Even the name is pronounced wrong...it would have been pronounced as Shazuz.

Im not saying I dont believe he was a great man, I definitely believe he could heal and had foresight and great compassion, I just dont think he was the magician hes been made out to be.

Think about human nature.....how we love to have a hero...we need heros! But now we have so many means of seeing the real person through television, paintings, magazines etc, whereas then they only had the spoken word and very rarely the written word. You can see how easy it would have been to get the story wrong when the Bible was eventually written.

 

[Squiglet]

Good morning... I wasn't thinking about this thread all night.. But rather knitting...

GGG that was what I was trying to say when I mentioned microwaves etc that would have seemed like magic. We have learnt so much more about our lives and our existance now that things mentioned in the bible might not have been as miraculous as they once were seen. Where ancient people believed that we were once the center of the universe, we now know this to be untrue.

We know a microwave for example is not miraculous but to an ancient people such as those in Noah's time would have seen it as such.

Also the "world" at the time, would never have been the world as we know it .... it would have been the world of the ancients. And by comparison a much smaller version of it. The whole continent of America didn't exist.

Also its very easy to say that the Hebrew word for day is Yom and this means 24 hours... IF... the first account of the bible was actually written in Hebrew... then we would be able to accept the fact that the "day" mentioned in Genisis is actually a 24 hour day as we know it. The problem is the timing for this....

For one....it is unlikely that the original bible was ever "written" down other than, if we accept the bible as fact, the 10 commandments as given to Moses on Mount Sinai... Also that was an awful long time after Adam walked the earth. It is more likely, as it was with most ancient peoples, that the bible... or the stories involved in it... were passed down Orally. We know "man" existed before the written word... even in Creationist theory, we didn't just wake up one day being able to read and write... so the only way the story of Adam could have been passed along is orally...

oral texts have never been particularly reliable... and dialects, cultural references will do a lot to obscure actual facts. What if the day was a god's day.... not a Hebrew day... Just because the first language for the bible to be written in was in Hebrew... doesn't mean there isn't the possibility that somewhere, somehow, this fact was obscured. Also the Hebrew of ancient times, is not the exact same Hebrew spoken today, the same as ALL languages, they move and develop. For example... Spanish has to verbs for "to be" yet they are used in completely different circumstances, yet there is only one verb to cover a multitude of English verbs "coger" to get, to catch, etc.

Also, there once existed many version of the bible, the Vatican still contain many of these, it wasn't until the first century B.C.E. (Before the Common Era, aka B.C.) that Jews settled on the canon of their scripture, and it was around 400 C.E. (Common Era, aka A.D.) that Christians agreed on all the books of their New Testament... what made those particular versions correct and the others not... ?


The bible that sits on the mantlepiece today, the one that has been quoted and requoted throughout this thread... is not the one that God delivered to Moses on Mount Sinai all those thousands of years ago...

We have already agreed that humans aren't very good at interpreting things, especially religion. What if we got it wrong?

 

[Freya]

So interesting. The reason I mentioned the baptism thing earliier on is because Squiglet on another thread mentioned that catholics didn't belive you could get to heaven if you were not baptised (I am catholic) - I couldn't believe that - checked with friends and of course (how could I have doubted her) Squiglet is right.

It is those kinds of things that mean I can't ever become devout because I disagree with so many things (there views on contraception, homosexuals, sex outside of marriage - and I view there things as having more political ideology than religious ideology).

 

[Squiglet]

So interesting. The reason I mentioned the baptism thing earliier on is because Squiglet on another thread mentioned that catholics didn't belive you could get to heaven if you were not baptised (I am catholic) - I couldn't believe that - checked with friends and of course (how could I have doubted her) Squiglet is right.

It is those kinds of things that mean I can't ever become devout because I disagree with so many things (there views on contraception, homosexuals, sex outside of marriage - and I view there things as having more political ideology than religious ideology).

The only reason I knew about it is because my mum went and baptised Tia, against my wishes and without my knowledge, just to make sure she didn't go to hell if she died...

Funny thing is my mums not devout anymore either (she was a lot more when I was younger but accepts condoms as a means to prevent AIDS etc ), it just seems to be a few particular things she takes to heart from the bible yet others she disregards... I suppose that's the construct of faith though rather than religion and is again the interpretation of any particular text...

My mum and I often talk over religion... but I accept that she will always believe what she believes and I will always believe what I believe.. and we never try to change each others beliefs and we accept each other... just we enjoy a good debate over it... like this one...