Do you support ideals if BNP?

[Jen & Her Men]

I'm having a similar discussion with Beanie on the other thread about BNP..

when DO we close our doors though? We cant financially help everyone? We will suffer, our kids will suffer. I have no problem with people coming to the country if they have something to offer (if i went to another country to live i would expect to contribute) but surely our system at the moment just isnt working?

I'd be really interested to know how you would control it if you were in charge..

Claire x

TBH I dont think its the immigrants that are causing the strain on our country. Its being caused by many factors, mainly to do with the fact that we have been allowed to spend money that isnt ours for far too long...and now we are paying the consequences.

If you really study immigration you will see that many do not get any benefits whatsoever and its much harder to get any help than the media make out.

I think sometimes the issues with our benefits system gets tangled up with immigration and the two need to be seperated.
Just because your an immigrant doesnt mean your on benefits or even trying to get them, every immigrant I know is hard working and contributes to English society as much as I do.

I think that we first of all need to readdress the balance with our benefits system in terms of reducing the number of freeloaders who abuse the system - whatever their nationality. How we do that Im not sure and I guess if there was an easy answer to that it would have been done by now....but something DOES need to be done about the amount of people who claim benefits who really shouldnt be. But again thats a different issue really because that includes all people in the UK, and I would say especially those who have been brought up from birth, born in this country, with that mentality who will pass it on to their children and their childrens children - thats more damaging IMHO.

 

[nori]

If you really study immigration you will see that many do not get any benefits whatsoever and its much harder to get any help than the media make out.

I think sometimes the issues with our benefits system gets tangled up with immigration and the two need to be seperated.
Just because your an immigrant doesnt mean your on benefits or even trying to get them, every immigrant I know is hard working and contributes to English society as much as I do.

I think that we first of all need to readdress the balance with our benefits system in terms of reducing the number of freeloaders who abuse the system - whatever their nationality. How we do that Im not sure and I guess if there was an easy answer to that it would have been done by now....but something DOES need to be done about the amount of people who claim benefits who really shouldnt be. But again thats a different issue really because that includes all people in the UK, and I would say especially those who have been brought up from birth, born in this country, with that mentality who will pass it on to their children and their childrens children - thats more damaging IMHO.

I whole heartidly agree with your last paragraph.. something needs to change there. Do you feel that the immigration system in place at the moment is working for this country then?

I dont know enough about it to put forward facts and figures so apologise (i will do my homework) but cant help but feel that due to the economic climate we should shut our doors now and sort out our country and the people already here first.

Claire x

 

[daftscotslass]

Another point id like to make is about people fleeing over here from violence.
Yes we know a lot of people do but I believe that its all to common to come here and say this just to get temp/permanent citizenship, benfits that garenteed by the EU Law.

You dont think a lot of people see Britain as a free ride?

Well, those who see it as a free ride aren't educated about how the EU works. As an EU citizen you are free to settle and to work in any of the member countries, but this doesn't get you citizenship. In order to get citizenship you'd have to be a resident for 5 years (or 3 if married to a British National), pass the 'Life in the UK' test and pay about £655 for your application. You are not entitled to any British benefits (apart from Healthcare, which is open to any permanent resident) until you've contributed. If you are coming from an EU country looking for work in Britain you can get up to 3 months JSA which is paid for by your country of origin, after that you have to return to your country of origin to continue your search there, or any help is cut off. If you find work, you're put onto an emergency tax code which is vastly higher than normal tax until you've sorted your NI number, which I hasten to add is a pain in the backside and can take up to 8 weeks to get, and don't get me even started on trying to get a bank account without a permanent job or a permanent job without a bank account.

I fail to see how this is a "free ride". Especially as Britons are free to settle and work anywhere in the EU, too.

Couldn't agree more. As an EU citizen you effectively have the same right to work as a British citizen. But even then the number of hoops you have to jump through is beyond belief. Luckily my OH found work very quickly but he too was faced with the issues surrounding getting a bank account and tax/national insurance. But again, nobody contests his right to be there because he's Dutch. I just don't get it. Would it be different if he were Polish?

It is just not as simple as turn up in the UK, sign on and away you go.

 

[Jen & Her Men]

Problem is though - if we "shut our doors" so to speak to all immigration then all that will happen is other countries will close doors to us. So all the people in this country who could benefit from working abroad and earning money will suffer. Plus we will lose the opportunity of potentially great and helpful people who can help with our economic problems coming into the country.

The world has thrived in recent times due to free trade. Start putting embargoes on where people can go to and who can or cant enter countries and then you really do start having problems.

Every process or policy has down sides - thats why politics is such a controversial subject. I dont by any means think we have everything right in this country in terms of our benefits system etc but I also think that it isnt broken enough to go to extremes like shutting the doors on all immigrants now.

 

[nori]

Problem is though - if we "shut our doors" so to speak to all immigration then all that will happen is other countries will close doors to us. So all the people in this country who could benefit from working abroad and earning money will suffer. Plus we will lose the opportunity of potentially great and helpful people who can help with our economic problems coming into the country.

The world has thrived in recent times due to free trade. Start putting embargoes on where people can go to and who can or cant enter countries and then you really do start having problems.

Every process or policy has down sides - thats why politics is such a controversial subject. I dont by any means think we have everything right in this country in terms of our benefits system etc but I also think that it isnt broken enough to go to extremes like shutting the doors on all immigrants now.

I think im getting myself confused here with the difference between immigration and illegal immigrants. I understand from a friend of mine and many of the polish workers that i work with that its not easy if you go through the correct procedures.

What i think i have an issue with is the illegal immigrants who are here who dont get sent home. Im all for poeple being able to go to other countries to work no matter where they are from as long as they can support themeselves.

Do you feel we should still be supporting them dispite the economic downturn of this country?

 

[Jen & Her Men]

But we dont support illegal immigrants?

They are illegal and by definition will not get any help. They tend to "lose" themselves in the country and if anything, get exploited by unscrupulous english people who see them as cheap labour. They dont get benefits and things like that because if they came to light within the system, they would be deported...

 

[nori]

But we dont support illegal immigrants?

They are illegal and by definition will not get any help. They tend to "lose" themselves in the country and if anything, get exploited by unscrupulous english people who see them as cheap labour. They dont get benefits and things like that because if they came to light within the system, they would be deported...

So why are so many getting "lost" in the system. When they are found why arent they deported immediately? something is clearly going wrong?

Oh im all confused now... Am i totally incorrect in saying that there are people coming into this country who cant speak english, dont have a job yet are being giving benefits and the use of our NHS even though they are not contributing anything to this country?

Oh and theres no need for anyone to say about the lazy english claiming benefits as i agree that that needs sorting too.

Claire x

 

[daftscotslass]

I think im getting myself confused here with the difference between immigration and illegal immigrants. I understand from a friend of mine and many of the polish workers that i work with that its not easy if you go through the correct procedures.

Poland is a member state of the EU and, as such, Polish people have the right to work in the UK. People who live in the new member states - Poland, Latvia, Hungary to name a few - have to register to work. After a year they can apply to have a certificate confirming their right to work (without having to register again) in the UK. It's not difficult but it does involve effort on the part of the individual.

 

[Jen & Her Men]

But we dont support illegal immigrants?

They are illegal and by definition will not get any help. They tend to "lose" themselves in the country and if anything, get exploited by unscrupulous english people who see them as cheap labour. They dont get benefits and things like that because if they came to light within the system, they would be deported...

So why are so many getting "lost" in the system. When they are found why arent they deported immediately? something is clearly going wrong?

Oh im all confused now... Am i totally incorrect in saying that there are people coming into this country who cant speak english, dont have a job yet are being giving benefits and the use of our NHS even though they are not contributing anything to this country?

Oh and theres no need for anyone to say about the lazy english claiming benefits as i agree that that needs sorting too.

Claire x

I dont know the exact figures but someone gave all the facts earlier in the thread...you have to be in this country for 2 or 3 years and contributing (i.e. paying tax) before you get access to NHS benefits. The idea that people move over here and automatically get assistance is a misnomer. When you register at a doctors you need proof of nationality etc etc and if you dont have the relevant documentation you wont get registered. The same goes for benefits. Widowwadman put all the facts down earlier in the thread.
There is a great program on TV at the mo, think its BBC1 which shows all about immigration and people who try to get into the country illegally and the people in this country employed to stop them. Im not entirely sure why people just are not deported straight away - some are but others are given orders to report back in x amounts of weeks and then dont...I think its just to do with the system not being able to cope with retaining the numbers of illegal immigrants before deporting them back. Remember that has a cost attached to it too. Sticking all illegal immigrants in a "prison" or holding them somewhere is probably more expensive then allowing them to get "lost" in the country. Not saying thats morally correct but Im sure that if it was cheaper to hold them and send them back then thats what would be done...

 

[laetitia85]

But we dont support illegal immigrants?

They are illegal and by definition will not get any help. They tend to "lose" themselves in the country and if anything, get exploited by unscrupulous english people who see them as cheap labour. They dont get benefits and things like that because if they came to light within the system, they would be deported...

So why are so many getting "lost" in the system. When they are found why arent they deported immediately? something is clearly going wrong?

Oh im all confused now... Am i totally incorrect in saying that there are people coming into this country who cant speak english, dont have a job yet are being giving benefits and the use of our NHS even though they are not contributing anything to this country?

Oh and theres no need for anyone to say about the lazy english claiming benefits as i agree that that needs sorting too.

Claire x

Yes, my friend came as an illegal immigrant, when his family tried to escape the war. He came as an asylum seeker. He didn't speak good english when he came, he didn't have a job because he was too young, and didn't have much to offer when he first arrived. But eventually, as time went by, he learnt english and now speaks it perfectly, he is not allowed to work because he has no papers, so yes, he does rely on the government and benefits. He contributes to society as much as he can, and he is not a criminal. "The use of our NHS" as you say, well, I am glad immigrants (illegal or not) have the right to use the NHS. I can't remember who it was who mentionned this on another thread but the UK once owned 3/4 of the world, implementing slavery and colonial regimes all over, making vulnerable people suffer. That's why, when you say your children will suffer, I can't help but ask - what kind of suffering are you refferring to? The poorest parts of the world still suffer to this day, due to unfair western policies and practices, and there is still a lot of injustice in this world. And like I have said about 3 times on this forum before, the people who come to the UK to escape hardship/war/conflict/struggle/etc. come from ex british colonies anyway. It's only fair they get asylum here. And when people say to me: "We should only allow them if they have something to offer". I say, fair enough, because when the british colonised most parts of the world, they did implement good infrastructure, they did straighten things up and made some of those countries a better place, but at what price? A huge part of this world was built through slavery. Humans have to be humans. Sometimes we need to have a bit of compassion and see the bigger picture.

 

[Jen & Her Men]

I completely agree Laetitia

End of the day, as much as things are "bad" at the mo they are still a darn sight better than if we were living in other countries.

We still have free health care, and roofs over our heads clothes, food etc etc

I didnt choose to be born in England as others didnt choose to be born in the poorer countries so why do i have more rights to a happier life just because i was lucky to be born in a developed country?

Everyone has a right to a decent standard of living and maybe if some of us stepped outside of our own "hardships" and looked at how others lived we wouldnt mind so much sharing a bit of what are lucky enough to have.

 

[nori]

my friend came as an illegal immigrant, when his family tried to escape the war. He came as an asylum seeker. He didn't speak good english when he came, he didn't have a job because he was too young, and didn't have much to offer when he first arrived. But eventually, as time went by, he learnt english and now speaks it perfectly, he is not allowed to work because he has no papers, so yes, he does rely on the government and benefits. He contributes to society as much as he can, and he is not a criminal. "The use of our NHS" as you say, well, I am glad immigrants (illegal or not) have the right to use the NHS. I can't remember who it was who mentionned this on another thread but the UK once owned 3/4 of the world, implementing slavery and colonial regimes all over, making vulnerable people suffer. That's why, when you say your children will suffer, I can't help but ask - what kind of suffering are you refferring to? The poorest parts of the world still suffer to this day, due to unfair western policies and practices, and there is still a lot of injustice in this world. And like I have said about 3 times on this forum before, the people who come to the UK to escape hardship/war/conflict/struggle/etc. come from ex british colonies anyway. It's only fair they get asylum here. And when people say to me: "We should only allow them if they have something to offer". I say, fair enough, because when the british colonised most parts of the world, they did implement good infrastructure, they did straighten things up and made some of those countries a better place, but at what price? A huge part of this world was built through slavery. Humans have to be humans. Sometimes we need to have a bit of compassion and see the bigger picture.

So.. he speaks english, the government wont allow him to work yet the government are giving him benefits? That crazy!! That just proves to me what a screwed up system is in place. If your friend has something he can offer (which im sure he has) then let him bloody work!

 

[laetitia85]

my friend came as an illegal immigrant, when his family tried to escape the war. He came as an asylum seeker. He didn't speak good english when he came, he didn't have a job because he was too young, and didn't have much to offer when he first arrived. But eventually, as time went by, he learnt english and now speaks it perfectly, he is not allowed to work because he has no papers, so yes, he does rely on the government and benefits. He contributes to society as much as he can, and he is not a criminal. "The use of our NHS" as you say, well, I am glad immigrants (illegal or not) have the right to use the NHS. I can't remember who it was who mentionned this on another thread but the UK once owned 3/4 of the world, implementing slavery and colonial regimes all over, making vulnerable people suffer. That's why, when you say your children will suffer, I can't help but ask - what kind of suffering are you refferring to? The poorest parts of the world still suffer to this day, due to unfair western policies and practices, and there is still a lot of injustice in this world. And like I have said about 3 times on this forum before, the people who come to the UK to escape hardship/war/conflict/struggle/etc. come from ex british colonies anyway. It's only fair they get asylum here. And when people say to me: "We should only allow them if they have something to offer". I say, fair enough, because when the british colonised most parts of the world, they did implement good infrastructure, they did straighten things up and made some of those countries a better place, but at what price? A huge part of this world was built through slavery. Humans have to be humans. Sometimes we need to have a bit of compassion and see the bigger picture.

So.. he speaks english, the government wont allow him to work yet the government are giving him benefits? That crazy!! That just proves to me what a screwed up system is in place. If your friend has something he can offer (which im sure he has) then let him bloody work!

He would LOVE to work and pay his taxes just like everyone else. But if the BNP were in power, would you see that happening? Don't think so. He wouldn't even be allowed to come here, let alone work here! At least the current government is allowing him to stay and wait for his papers to come through (i believe his case is still being assessed but he's nearly there)

 

[nori]

He would LOVE to work and pay his taxes just like everyone else. But if the BNP were in power, would you see that happening? Don't think so. He wouldn't even be allowed to come here, let alone work here! At least the current government is aloowing him to stay and wait for his papers to come through (i believe his case is still being assessed but he's nearly there)

Crazy... im in shock.. so what happens now then? does he just stay here indefinately and continue with benefits? Why on earth doesnt the government have a sceme in place where we look at who is in the country and see if we can get them out to work and off benefits? Makes me mad when there are people who just want to make a better life for themselves yet cant!

 

[laetitia85]

He would LOVE to work and pay his taxes just like everyone else. But if the BNP were in power, would you see that happening? Don't think so. He wouldn't even be allowed to come here, let alone work here! At least the current government is aloowing him to stay and wait for his papers to come through (i believe his case is still being assessed but he's nearly there)

Crazy... im in shock.. so what happens now then? does he just stay here indefinately and continue with benefits? Why on earth doesnt the government have a sceme in place where we look at who is in the country and see if we can get them out to work and off benefits? Makes me mad when there are people who just want to make a better life for themselves yet cant!

There are a lot of people in that situation. For my friend, I know that the benefits aren't enough. But he has never complained about it. He asked his case workers if it was ok for him to DJ for a bit of cash or baby sit. And they said yes, it's ok, but I think he's not allowed to charge over a certain amount, can't really remember...
That just shows you that he is willing to intergrate in society. I agree with you, there should be a policy that allows able immigrants to go out to work and off benefits. I think you have to apply for a work visa. But my friend's case is different because he was brought here illegally by his family when he was a child, (when they tried to escape th ewar). Whereas someone who applies for a work/study visa comes here legally, with the intention to work/study. I don't know the exact details but it's quite complicated. I know that in his situation, he is not even allowed to apply for a work visa, if so he would have done it ages ago. Asylum was refused the first time he asked for it, and he had a couple of appeals that he could use and I think he's still here because not all his appeals were exhausted. And the home office is considering letting him be a UK citizen so fingers crossed .

 

[Melly+2]

Aww thats so sad for your friend, he seems like a decent guy, hope he gets it sorted soon x

 

[Charlie:-)]

Personally I dont see immigrants on the whole as wanting a free ride.

Seeing pictures of people crammed into spaces on lorries and dealing with the discomfort and dangerous situations that can sometimes be lethal that these people go through just to get into this country....makes me wonder what an awful situation they must come from to go to such desperate measures and how lucky I am to live in a country and be a member of a country that these people risk their lives to get to.

There are criminals in every nation. Some of our criminals go abroad - thats how Australia gained much of its population initially!!
I think its unfair to label every immigrant, illegal or not, that comes into this country because of a few that break the law.

For me its a case of there but for the grace of god rather than feeling any resentment towards them..

We employ some Polish people because we also work over in Poland - they make money by being over here but we also make money through working in Poland so its swings and roundabouts. Plus many of the Polish that come over here do so to make a better life for themselves and they pay taxes etc just like us.

Why are we so much better than any other nation that only we can benefit from the privileges that living in a developed country give? People move jobs to better themselves, why is it not ok that they move countries too?

well said

Completely agree & loving your new user name Jen

 

[nori]

There are a lot of people in that situation. For my friend, I know that the benefits aren't enough. But he has never complained about it. He asked his case workers if it was ok for him to DJ for a bit of cash or baby sit. And they said yes, it's ok, but I think he's not allowed to charge over a certain amount, can't really remember...
That just shows you that he is willing to intergrate in society. I agree with you, there should be a policy that allows able immigrants to go out to work and off benefits. I think you have to apply for a work visa. But my friend's case is different because he was brought here illegally by his family when he was a child, (when they tried to escape th ewar). Whereas someone who applies for a work/study visa comes here legally, with the intention to work/study. I don't know the exact details but it's quite complicated. I know that in his situation, he is not even allowed to apply for a work visa, if so he would have done it ages ago. Asylum was refused the first time he asked for it, and he had a couple of appeals that he could use and I think he's still here because not all his appeals were exhausted. And the home office is considering letting him be a UK citizen so fingers crossed .

That is ridiculous.. what is our government doing??Goodness knows how much money over all those years has been wasted when your friend wants to make a life for himself!

I know we went a bit off topic here but i've learnt alot.. good luck to your friend. Will let the debates continue!

Claire x

 

[Jen & Her Men]

Why do the government not let these people work but give them benefits? Does anyone know the reasoning behind this?

 

[Magic Monkey]

Ok I admit that I got bored and didn't read all of the posts, so I apologise if I am repeating what others said!

When talking about foreign workers taking all of our jobs and how it is wrong, people seem to gloss over the fact that they would happily do the same elsewhere given half a chance - in a post in the adult area recently someone asked what is so great about the uk? Most of the responses stated that the answer was nothing and that many people were looking to move abroad first chance they got. How do you think the people in Australia, America, Spain etc. feel about that - are you taking their jobs so that they can't work? I feel that people can be hypocritical when it comes to discussing immigration, i.e. it is ok for me to move abroad and work but not for others to come here and do the same.

I also agree that in a lot of cases foreign workers are taking jobs that British people think are beneath them like fruit picking, cleaning etc. There is something wrong with the system in this country when someone who is out of work, can turn down those sort of jobs as they get more from living on benefits. On the whole, it is the British that have a sit on my backside and claim benefits mentality rather than immigrants and therefore they won't do poorly paid manual jobs.

And, when talking about foreigners living here, the whole they should integrate argument often comes up, and as Squig says the British very rarely integrate elsewhere in the world - they move, looking for England with better weather, living in ex pat communities, eating English food and moaning about not being able to get a decent cup of tea!