Do you support ideals if BNP?

[nori]

nori - illegal immigrants don't get benefits! asylum seekers get some support because they have no other means of supporting themselves until they are either accepted into the country or sent home.

please see page 13 on here.. sorry couldnt work out how to copy it over!

do you mean laeticia's friend? he came here illegally but claimed asylum status. that's different to people entering the country illegally and staying under the radar.

Yeah thats what im talking about.. i was wondering whether all EU countries have the same crazy policy?

 

[Morganuk]

It's not just Britain that has a 'problem', it's the same wherever you go, so it's not a question of other countries 'not helping out'.

Germany and France both have massive immigrant populations. Germany brought in the Turks in their hundreds of thousands after the second world war in order to help rebuild the country and its economic infrastructure. France has a massive Muslim population (and a massive Brit one too!). In fact, go anywhere in Europe and it's the same, even here in Switzerland (where they famously had the 'black sheep' political campaign a couple of years ago )

The fact is we NEED immigrants in all walks of life. I AM one! No country, despite what the press would have you believe, lays out a red carpet for any Tom, Dick or Harry, to 'sponge' from it's system. This is a myth, created by certain sections of the media, and (ahem) certain extreme politicians, to satisfy THEIR OWN ends........

When the masses start to believe the hype (and you can't blame them in a way, there's SO MUCH of it) then these people get a grip on power and we know from history what the consequences of that are.........

Thank goodness, that in this high tech media world, us lay people have the education and the resources to be able to separate the fact from the fiction ourselves, which is no doubt the reason why the BNP has such a pathetically small following.

No country, despite what the press would have you believe, lays out a red carpet for any Tom, Dick or Harry, to 'sponge' from it's system.

You dont have to read the papers to know we have a free benefits and free healthcare system thats easy to obtain from.

Who says its easy to obtain from? It is for us because we are British citizens.
Who do you know who is an illegal immigrant who obtain from it? Thats not meant to sound funny btw Im just curious to understand what makes you think that.

Why would the goverment go to measures to stop them getting it if they werent?
I am just going off what I have read:
Example: http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/about-us/n ... l-benefits
http://press.homeoffice.gov.uk/press-re ... nforcement

 

[widowwadman]

Germany and France both have massive immigrant populations. Germany brought in the Turks in their hundreds of thousands after the second world war in order to help rebuild the country and its economic infrastructure. France has a massive Muslim population (and a massive Brit one too!). In fact, go anywhere in Europe and it's the same, even here in Switzerland (where they famously had the 'black sheep' political campaign a couple of years ago )

Just going back to Laiticias story about her friend.. do those other countries do the same as Britain and give out benefits to illegal immigrants who could and would happily make a life for themselves, get a job and support themselves but arent allowed to work?

Sorry, but its still bugging me to the extent im thinking of writing to someone (just dont know who!) lol

Benefits are not given out to illegal immigrants. Illegal immigrants get nada, zilch, nothing. Apart from a trip to the detention centre if they're found out. Asylum seekers however, who are not illegal immigrants, get very basic benefits and are not allowed to work. As soon as their claim for asylum is refused, these benefits are stopped (including basic healthcare) and of course they're still not allowed to work they're basically classed as illegal immigrants, and these people end up either in detention centres and are eventually deported or end up in total destitution on the streets.

It's interesting and saddening how the word "illegal" seems to get attached to the word "immigrant" automatically.

But to answer your question - in most countries asylum seekers are not allowed to work and therefore have to rely on benefits of some sort. Apart from the EU as special case which allows free travel/right to work for all of its citizens across the EU, you will always need a work permit if you want to work in a foreign country. If you overstay your visum (and work permit) you're automatically an illegal immigrant btw.

Just to quickly comment on the German situation: In the 1960s the German government actively recruited workers from Turkey (and to some extend Poland) to cover labour shortages, thinking that the guys would do their job and go off home again, not fore-seeing that people wanted to stay, and bring their families over, too. Because of this there's some areas with huge Turkish population, a lot of them being now 2nd and 3rd generation, but not getting German passports without a lot of bureaucratic hoops and trouble. This means there are people who've been born and bred in Germany, are a product of German society, but are basically classed as foreigners. This once led even to a case where they wanted to deport a 14 year old criminal to Turkey, even though he never has even set foot there before, but lived in Germany from birth, as "he wasn't German". Disgusting, if you ask me. The situation of Turks in Germany is much more comparable to other migrant workers, but has - with the exception of Kurds - nothing to do with fleeing prosecution, but settling elsewhere to work.

Morgan UK - on the subject of job shortages, you might want to read this

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2007/may/2 ... odanddrink

or this http://www.shropshirestar.com/2008/07/2 ... -for-crop/

or this http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style ... 26245.html

 

[Jen & Her Men]

good reply sue

i think the problem with the counter-argument in this debate is that noone is coming back with facts & figures to state their case; replies all contain vague suppositions without factual basis. its quite frustrating. its this ignorance that the BNP propaganda machine relies on - which is why i'm still finding a need to question it.

soooo, to those who still think there are too many immigrants coming here and taking our jobs and benefits, for the sake of a proper and decent debate, please supply your evidence! and remember to differentiate between immigrants, illegal immigrants & asylum seekers.

nori - illegal immigrants don't get benefits! asylum seekers get some support because they have no other means of supporting themselves until they are either accepted into the country or sent home.

Ok i am not one of those who support the BNP or any of its policies but No one who has said yes is willing to come forward and put there arguments into this debate! maybe they are ashamed maybe they cannot back themselves up..who knows but i am going to try and see it from both sides objectively so no one jump on me...i am trying to see what the other arguments could possibly be! ok! here is just one of the main points being put forward: the claim that immigrant workers are "stealing our jobs"

HE flood of migrant workers from eastern Europe has driven up unemployment among Britons.

A sharp drop in employment among British workers since 2004 has been mirrored by a sharp rise in the number of Poles, Lithuanians and their neighbours working here, a Cambridge University professor revealed yesterday.

The numbers reflect the huge wave of migrant workers from the former communist bloc after the EU expanded in that year.

But the rise in other migrant workers remained steady over the same period – suggesting that the flows from eastern Europe have had a direct impact on jobs.

The analysis shatters the Government’s claims that its decision to give free access to the labour market in 2004 would benefit the country. It also makes a mockery of Gordon Brown’s pledge of British jobs for British workers.

It comes as separate research shows tens of thousands of migrant workers, from within and outside the EU, have landed jobs in the country’s unemployment blackspots.

Last week a devastating House of Lords report said that mass migration had not benefitted the economy.

Cambridge Professor Robert Rowthorn, who analysed the Government’s own figures, said: “Official claims that immigration has had a negligible impact on native workers are hard to square with the observed behaviour of employment at a national level.

“There is a striking inverse relationship between the employment of UK natives and that of nationals from the A8 (Eastern European) countries.

“It seems fairly obvious that immigration from the first wave of new member states has had a negative impact on native employment.”

Is this really true or is it a fact that thise immigrants have found jobs in these "unemployment blackspots" because the native britains have been too lazy to get out and get these jobs for themselves??
Is it true that companies would rather emply immigrants from eastern europe because they will do the job for less money? surely these migrant workers are still subject to minimum wage rules being from the EU??

Hiya Fran. In my experience its exactly inflammatory stuff like that article that causes problems. Because its written in black and white people believe it.
Firstly, who is the Cambridge guy who did the research? He could be anyone and his research may not be 100% valid or he is looking for a particular result or angle. Secondly, until the past 8 months or so, Labour government have bragged about year on year decline in the level of unemployment so that contradicts the idea that british uneployment has been on the increase since 2004. And if it HAS been on the increase then where is the evidence that this is soley down to the EU immigrants "taking our jobs"?
This isnt aimed at you at any way hun, its just the article you copied down is a fantastic example of why people get on the "lets blame the immigrants" bandwagon.
Going from my own experiences from when I worked in recruitment, I came across one company in the 100s that I dealt with who really took advantage of the foreign labour force and used them over and above English workers due to cost. BUt they were an unscrupulous business who I refused to recruit for because the MD was a total tit (no other word for him sorry!) and basically would have cut any corners possible to save money. IMO its HIM thats causing the problems by not employing local labour but at the same time, I doubt any Brit with choices of employment would ever want to work for him anyway. Those poor immigrants were just totally exploited.

Thing that we have to remember is that we have been a very prosperous country for quite some time until very recently. The strength of the pound has been amazing next to the Euro and i would say its only natural that other EU members would want to share in that prosperity. The causes for recent unemployment levels have been well documented and its all to do with Banks and over lending etc etc and NOTHING to do with the immigrant workers.
I think that this country will probably see many foreign workers return to their own country over the next 12 months or so because of the fact that the pound just isnt as strong any more and jobs are scarce for everyone.
From a personal point of view I would rather share my country with others and have it be a successful and prosperous place to live rather than live here in a country full of Brits thats riddled with recession and no bugger wants to come live here because of it..

 

[laetitia85]

nori - illegal immigrants don't get benefits! asylum seekers get some support because they have no other means of supporting themselves until they are either accepted into the country or sent home.

please see page 13 on here.. sorry couldnt work out how to copy it over!

do you mean laeticia's friend? he came here illegally but claimed asylum status. that's different to people entering the country illegally and staying under the radar.

yes I was just about to say that. His family (well, what was left of it - his dad was killed during the war) came here illegally - meaning they probably used fake passports or I don't know how they did it. But it wasn't with the intention to come on holiday. they came out of desperation to find a safer and better place to live. And they claimed asylum status. As the year went by, he never got deported, don't ask me why, (favour of God, I believe) and probably because of appeals. But he did get put in a detention centre (I went to see him there, it was like a high security prison!) It was Harmondsworth detention and removal centre, the one near heathrow.

 

[nori]

But to answer your question - in most countries asylum seekers are not allowed to work and therefore have to rely on benefits of some sort. Apart from the EU as special case which allows free travel/right to work for all of its citizens across the EU, you will always need a work permit if you want to work in a foreign country. If you overstay your visum (and work permit) you're automatically an illegal immigrant btw.

This is what is crazy though. Our government is handing out benefits to someone who is quite happy to work and contribute to society!

And i agree about the immigrant/illegal immigrant quoting.. i have a feeling i did it earlier on in this thread.. sorry! Im learning alot though.. hence all my questions that are probably annoying the hell out of people.. i'll be banned from the thread soon!

 

[fran_23]

[quote="fran_23":34gv2is8]

good reply sue

i think the problem with the counter-argument in this debate is that noone is coming back with facts & figures to state their case; replies all contain vague suppositions without factual basis. its quite frustrating. its this ignorance that the BNP propaganda machine relies on - which is why i'm still finding a need to question it.

soooo, to those who still think there are too many immigrants coming here and taking our jobs and benefits, for the sake of a proper and decent debate, please supply your evidence! and remember to differentiate between immigrants, illegal immigrants & asylum seekers.

nori - illegal immigrants don't get benefits! asylum seekers get some support because they have no other means of supporting themselves until they are either accepted into the country or sent home.

Ok i am not one of those who support the BNP or any of its policies but No one who has said yes is willing to come forward and put there arguments into this debate! maybe they are ashamed maybe they cannot back themselves up..who knows but i am going to try and see it from both sides objectively so no one jump on me...i am trying to see what the other arguments could possibly be! ok! here is just one of the main points being put forward: the claim that immigrant workers are "stealing our jobs"

HE flood of migrant workers from eastern Europe has driven up unemployment among Britons.

A sharp drop in employment among British workers since 2004 has been mirrored by a sharp rise in the number of Poles, Lithuanians and their neighbours working here, a Cambridge University professor revealed yesterday.

The numbers reflect the huge wave of migrant workers from the former communist bloc after the EU expanded in that year.

But the rise in other migrant workers remained steady over the same period – suggesting that the flows from eastern Europe have had a direct impact on jobs.

The analysis shatters the Government’s claims that its decision to give free access to the labour market in 2004 would benefit the country. It also makes a mockery of Gordon Brown’s pledge of British jobs for British workers.

It comes as separate research shows tens of thousands of migrant workers, from within and outside the EU, have landed jobs in the country’s unemployment blackspots.

Last week a devastating House of Lords report said that mass migration had not benefitted the economy.

Cambridge Professor Robert Rowthorn, who analysed the Government’s own figures, said: “Official claims that immigration has had a negligible impact on native workers are hard to square with the observed behaviour of employment at a national level.

“There is a striking inverse relationship between the employment of UK natives and that of nationals from the A8 (Eastern European) countries.

“It seems fairly obvious that immigration from the first wave of new member states has had a negative impact on native employment.”

Is this really true or is it a fact that thise immigrants have found jobs in these "unemployment blackspots" because the native britains have been too lazy to get out and get these jobs for themselves??
Is it true that companies would rather emply immigrants from eastern europe because they will do the job for less money? surely these migrant workers are still subject to minimum wage rules being from the EU??

Hiya Fran. In my experience its exactly inflammatory stuff like that article that causes problems. Because its written in black and white people believe it.
Firstly, who is the Cambridge guy who did the research? He could be anyone and his research may not be 100% valid or he is looking for a particular result or angle. Secondly, until the past 8 months or so, Labour government have bragged about year on year decline in the level of unemployment so that contradicts the idea that british uneployment has been on the increase since 2004. And if it HAS been on the increase then where is the evidence that this is soley down to the EU immigrants "taking our jobs"?
This isnt aimed at you at any way hun, its just the article you copied down is a fantastic example of why people get on the "lets blame the immigrants" bandwagon.
Going from my own experiences from when I worked in recruitment, I came across one company in the 100s that I dealt with who really took advantage of the foreign labour force and used them over and above English workers due to cost. BUt they were an unscrupulous business who I refused to recruit for because the MD was a total tit (no other word for him sorry!) and basically would have cut any corners possible to save money. IMO its HIM thats causing the problems by not employing local labour but at the same time, I doubt any Brit with choices of employment would ever want to work for him anyway. Those poor immigrants were just totally exploited.

Thing that we have to remember is that we have been a very prosperous country for quite some time until very recently. The strength of the pound has been amazing next to the Euro and i would say its only natural that other EU members would want to share in that prosperity. The causes for recent unemployment levels have been well documented and its all to do with Banks and over lending etc etc and NOTHING to do with the immigrant workers.
I think that this country will probably see many foreign workers return to their own country over the next 12 months or so because of the fact that the pound just isnt as strong any more and jobs are scarce for everyone.
From a personal point of view I would rather share my country with others and have it be a successful and prosperous place to live rather than live here in a country full of Brits thats riddled with recession and no bugger wants to come live here because of it..[/quote:34gv2is8]

Yes i totally agree with you hun the reason i did copy that article although i find it hard to explain myself clearly was to demonstrate what the people who have voted yes the support the BNPs policies may be reading and seeing as proof- as none of these people have as yet come forward with any proof or articles to support there claims i was sort of trying to second guess what kind of literature they may have seen. I found that article and it was the perfect example of how the media propaganda machine makes narrow minded people go around bleating this crap out like little sheep and they don't have all the facts! oh but if they read it in the sun it must be true!

 

[Jen & Her Men]

It's not just Britain that has a 'problem', it's the same wherever you go, so it's not a question of other countries 'not helping out'.

Germany and France both have massive immigrant populations. Germany brought in the Turks in their hundreds of thousands after the second world war in order to help rebuild the country and its economic infrastructure. France has a massive Muslim population (and a massive Brit one too!). In fact, go anywhere in Europe and it's the same, even here in Switzerland (where they famously had the 'black sheep' political campaign a couple of years ago )

The fact is we NEED immigrants in all walks of life. I AM one! No country, despite what the press would have you believe, lays out a red carpet for any Tom, Dick or Harry, to 'sponge' from it's system. This is a myth, created by certain sections of the media, and (ahem) certain extreme politicians, to satisfy THEIR OWN ends........

When the masses start to believe the hype (and you can't blame them in a way, there's SO MUCH of it) then these people get a grip on power and we know from history what the consequences of that are.........

Thank goodness, that in this high tech media world, us lay people have the education and the resources to be able to separate the fact from the fiction ourselves, which is no doubt the reason why the BNP has such a pathetically small following.

No country, despite what the press would have you believe, lays out a red carpet for any Tom, Dick or Harry, to 'sponge' from it's system.

You dont have to read the papers to know we have a free benefits and free healthcare system thats easy to obtain from.

Who says its easy to obtain from? It is for us because we are British citizens.
Who do you know who is an illegal immigrant who obtain from it? Thats not meant to sound funny btw Im just curious to understand what makes you think that.

Why would the goverment go to measures to stop them getting it if they werent?
I am just going off what I have read:
Example: http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/about-us/n ... l-benefits
http://press.homeoffice.gov.uk/press-re ... nforcement

The government put in measures to stop all sorts of stuff from making sure you pay your train fare to trying to stop murderers. Both of those crimes are committed by a tiny minority of the population. Just as there are SOME immigrants who will try and exploit the system. Doesnt make it easy for them to do it.

 

[nori]

Yes i totally agree with you hun the reason i did copy that article although i find it hard to explain myself clearly was to demonstrate what the people who have voted yes the support the BNPs policies may be reading and seeing as proof- as none of these people have as yet come forward with any proof or articles to support there claims i was sort of trying to second guess what kind of literature they may have seen. I found that article and it was the perfect example of how the media propaganda machine makes narrow minded people go around bleating this crap out like little sheep and they don't have all the facts! oh but if they read it in the sun it must be true!

OK.. im gonna come clean.. when i read the title of this thread i thought it said "Do you support some ideas of the BNP" and having read some of the policies quoted on the original thread about closing the doors on immigration and helping the people who are already here i agreed with them so voted yes. I have to say i have never voted for the BNP in my life and having now looked up on it all and asked thousands of questions on this thread i realise they are an extreme racist bunch who i wouldnt ever vote for. Im crap with politics..the only party i have ever voted for in my life was the green party! SO... can you change my vote now please!

Having said that, i still feel that everyone does have a right to vote secretly and shouldnt have to explain themselves despite everyones attempts on here at getting people to own up!

I just now hope my house doesnt get bombed!

Claire x

 

[Sammystar]

Because of this there's some areas with huge Turkish population, a lot of them being now 2nd and 3rd generation, but not getting German passports without a lot of bureaucratic hoops and trouble. This means there are people who've been born and bred in Germany, are a product of German society, but are basically classed as foreigners. This once led even to a case where they wanted to deport a 14 year old criminal to Turkey, even though he never has even set foot there before, but lived in Germany from birth, as "he wasn't German". Disgusting, if you ask me. The situation of Turks in Germany is much more comparable to other migrant workers, but has - with the exception of Kurds - nothing to do with fleeing prosecution, but settling elsewhere to work.

I remember that case and I too was shocked by it.

 

[fran_23]

Yeah i agree with you- you have the right to vote secretly of course you do! I think its brave you explained why you said yes, theres a few others who voted yes yet nobody else has admitted it- or even posted arguments FOR supporting the BNP or some of there ideas, i for one was just wondering what the arguments or proof FOR them was, i wasn't asking everyone who votes for the BNP to stand up and be gunned down. If they are that ashamed of their views and want to keep them secret then why vote yes..they knew we would question it. I think you should be proud of your beliefs and stand up for them and debate why they are good...being secretive smacks of knowing it is wrong IMO-but we do all have the right to privacy. I was actually talking about BNP members bleating the beliefs like sheep rather than members on here,..but i am still wondering why some other havent stood up for themselves on here if they are there true beliefs!

 

[purple13]

lol claire i won't deny that i'm pleased that you've changed your mind but hope you don't feel railroaded into it either as fran says, if you are proud of your beliefs (as everyone ought to be) then you should be able to stand up and argue your case. this debate has got back on track in the last few pages and i've really enjoyed it. not at any point have i wanted people to own up to being a BNP supporter so that they can be lambasted for it; i've just got an innate curiousity and a love of debate! its been fun.

am off for the weekend now, traaaaa xx

ps. i think you can alter your vote yourself, should you wish

 

[widowwadman]

Nori, I don't think anyone would want to bomb you (besides, I feel bombing anyone is wrong, no matter how much you disagree with them. Vigilantism stinks anyway).

I think it's brilliant that you've started to ask questions and read more and revisit your initial opinion, this shows that these discussions are worth being held and important to be held. Seriously, hats off to you for engaging with the topic and considering all arguments.

Btw, I also believe in the secret ballot - although in the case of this poll, I think it'd be useless if people just went yes or no without giving any arguments for their opinion.

 

[nori]

I think it's brilliant that you've started to ask questions and read more and revisit your initial opinion, this shows that these discussions are worth being held and important to be held. Seriously, hats off to you for engaging with the topic and considering all arguments.

Btw, I also believe in the secret ballot - although in the case of this poll, I think it'd be useless if people just went yes or no without giving any arguments for their opinion.

Yeah.. i hate being proved wrong though! Suppose i was just a little bit ignorant to the facts.. i still firmly stand by my opinion that the system in place for benefits to asylum seekers who want to work sucks though!

Claire x

 

[Charlie:-)]

Very brave coming clean Nori I respect you for doing your research on the BNP and changing your mind, and also admitting you voted yes.

 

[laetitia85]

Nori, it's people like you who make this thread all worthile!

I still respect anyone else's opinion, including those who would vote BNP, but I must say I am glad you finally realised what the BNP are about.

 

[uncle_bens]

Thats the thing with the BNP, at face value, to someone who isn't going to research them, they can seem quite appealing. Less immigration = better country. But they've got ridiculous solutions to very serious issues.

 

[nori]

I really would like my vote to be changed.. how do i do it?

 

[beanie]

I really would like my vote to be changed.. how do i do it?

I have edited the poll so you can change it

 

[nori]

All done.. thanks!

Claire x