mohammed teddy bear *edit* poll added

[Squiglet]

I just wanted to point out... both me and DH are translators... I translate English/Spanish and well DH makes me look stupid with English/Spanish/French/German/Swedish/Danish/Norweign/Finnish...

One thing we can both agree on is that there is no such thing as a correct translation... there is only interpretation... Even in today's world.. with languages as similar as Spanish and English (both Latin based languages)... there are things that come up that just DON'T translate... so you have to make a random stab at what they most likely mean in another language.

I'm very sorry... but the bible was NEVER written in English... English as we know it as a language today, didn't even exisit when the bible was written. The bible has been translated and retranslated over thousands of years, even before Jesus exisited. (I believe Jesus existed because there are Roman texts proving his exisitance, which still exist in their original text and have not had the problem of translation. )

Some of the languages as well as the cultures, and as all translators know, culture has huge influences over the interpretation over any written word, these cultures/languages are now dead... So how can you be totally sure that the English words you read in the bible were the actual words or lessons that were originally intended?? The true word of Jesus... You can't, you have to use blind faith to believe that or at least have a grasp of ancient Arameic, which I'm pretty sure no one does .

If I am to believe what most Christians say... that Jesus was a wonderful man.. then he would accept that there are many great and wonderful people in the world who deserve to go to heaven even if they don't accept Jesus as their saviour. The thief on the cross.. he asked for forgiveness... Maybe the Church over the years, in order to keep people attending have used the phrase accepting Jesus as a saviour as a way of keeping people in the church, because we might just as well say... I ask for Gods forgiveness.

I will never be able to accept that a Muslim who runs out in front of a truck to rescue a Christian child, loosing his life in the process would go to hell because he doesn't "accept" Jesus as his saviour... yet Adolf Hitler who was responsible for the torture and murder of millions of Jews, Christians, handicapped innocents, gets to enjoy life in heaven... That, I am sorry, in my opinion is wrong.

 

[glitzyglamgirl]

Pinkpunch, its really refreshing that someone with such faith can take part in these kinds of debates

However, you do know how many times the bible (new testament) has been re-interpreted, re-written, and that its a collection of stories written by people years after Jesus lived? Do you know how many scrolls were purposefully removed and hidden because they told a completely different story? ie Mary Magdalene was his favorite disciple and he often kissed her, some even say they were married!

My point is, the Bible, new and old testament, was written by Man not by God. By many men actually. Those quotes you state are interesting, but have many holes in the interpretation.

I have always thought the bible should have been translated as metaphors. A good moral guideline theres no doubt about that, but in using metaphors. For example...did you know that the word "sin" is actually an ancient Greek and Hebrew word which means "missing the mark; falling short; or a departure". At the time the old testament was written, this word would have been used to describe such an event. Therefore, if you look at the message of committing a sin in that context, you can see it from a whole new angle.

Perhaps to commit one of the 7 sins was to miss the mark, fall short of yourself, and let yourself and your family and community down, which would likely result in a bad turn in life. Your own metaphorical hell. Living a good life and being a good person, ie not sinning, would give you a good happy life...your own metaphorical heaven. The devil is a metaphor...or a physical representation...of greed, temptation into a wrong life, that voice that whispers to us sometimes, an ancient bogey man who will come and get you if you are naughty.

The thing that strikes me the most however, is that people these days seem to be able to pick and choose what parts of the Bible to believe, and which parts to dismiss as metaphor and/or myth. I know the creation theory seems to be rearing its ugly misguided head again, but do you really believe the world and man was created within a week? That the world is only 5000 years old? That we walked with dinosaurs? If most intelligent Christians can admit that seems a bit far-fetched....well what about the rest of it?

 

[PinkPunch]

I'm very sorry... but the bible was NEVER written in English... English as we know it as a language today,

I know

(Ironically, I run a translation company )

I will never be able to accept that a Muslim who runs out in front of a truck to rescue a Christian child, loosing his life in the process would go to hell because he doesn't "accept" Jesus as his saviour..

I hope I explain this ok.. but sin cannot enter heaven. Jesus died on the cross so that all we need to do is repent and we can enter heaven regardless of your good acts. So even if someone died whilst saving someone else life, although its a good sacrifcal thing to do, unless you have asked Jesus into your heart, you can't be in the presense of God.

“Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

 

[glitzyglamgirl]

I'm very sorry... but the bible was NEVER written in English... English as we know it as a language today,

I know

(Ironically, I run a translation company )

[quote:2j0a25mp]I will never be able to accept that a Muslim who runs out in front of a truck to rescue a Christian child, loosing his life in the process would go to hell because he doesn't "accept" Jesus as his saviour..

I hope I explain this ok.. but sin cannot enter heaven. Jesus died on the cross so that all we need to do is repent and we can enter heaven regardless of your good acts. So even if someone died whilst saving someone else life, although its a good sacrifcal thing to do, unless you have asked Jesus into your heart, you can't be in the presense of God.

“Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”[/quote:2j0a25mp]

No maybe not in the presence of the Christian God, but that Muslim would certainly be welcome in the Muslim Paradise Im sure that Muslim would be pretty shocked to find himself in Heaven with the Christian God considering its not his God

 

[Squiglet]

I will never be able to accept that a Muslim who runs out in front of a truck to rescue a Christian child, loosing his life in the process would go to hell because he doesn't "accept" Jesus as his saviour..

I hope I explain this ok.. but sin cannot enter heaven. Jesus died on the cross so that all we need to do is repent and we can enter heaven regardless of your good acts. So even if someone died whilst saving someone else life, although its a good sacrifcal thing to do, unless you have asked Jesus into your heart, you can't be in the presense of God.

“Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

But then does that mean anyone... regardless of how heinous their crime is, if they ask for forgiveness they get to go to heaven, just because they say... "I'm sorry"... ? That means the bible and what Jesus said means nothing. I could go out now, stand in the middle of the street and murder thousands of children with an assualt rifle... yet as long as I "accept" Jesus, before I die... I go to heaven... That theory technically devalues the bible.. which I think is a bad thing... For all intense and purposes the bible is a good reference for moral living. While I don't accept all its teaching I agree with some of the things...

What if that is not what Jesus/God intended? What if they meant, you had to live a good life by accepting the moral guidelines laid down in the bible, ie accepting Jesus so to speak... In which case it wouldn't matter as long as you lived life in good morality. And living a bad life would mean you would still go to hell... even if you accept Jesus at the end, because you need to pay for your crimes and you didn't "accept" Jesus when it mattered.

I don't know if I am explaining myself correctly, its just it seems to be a last minute get out clause for bad people... a way for them to say... It's OK I can do what I want... I just have to accept Jesus on my death bed. Why be good in the first place? If you get my meaning.

 

[Squiglet]

Im sure that Muslim would be pretty shocked to find himself in Heaven with the Christian God considering its not his God

LOL... I would be dead shocked if I turned up in Heaven... Now I know there's a possibility of Hitler being there I'm not sure I'd want to be ... At least I get to chat with Gandhi in hell...

 

[glitzyglamgirl]

I will never be able to accept that a Muslim who runs out in front of a truck to rescue a Christian child, loosing his life in the process would go to hell because he doesn't "accept" Jesus as his saviour..

I hope I explain this ok.. but sin cannot enter heaven. Jesus died on the cross so that all we need to do is repent and we can enter heaven regardless of your good acts. So even if someone died whilst saving someone else life, although its a good sacrifcal thing to do, unless you have asked Jesus into your heart, you can't be in the presense of God.

“Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

But then does that mean anyone... regardless of how heinous their crime is, if they ask for forgiveness they get to go to heaven, just because they say... "I'm sorry"... ? That means the bible and what Jesus said means nothing. I could go out now, stand in the middle of the street and murder thousands of children with an assualt rifle... yet as long as I "accept" Jesus, before I die... I go to heaven... That theory technically devalues the bible.. which I think is a bad thing... For all intense and purposes the bible is a good reference for moral living. While I don't accept all its teaching I agree with some of the things...

What if that is not what Jesus/God intended? What if they meant, you had to live a good life by accepting the moral guidelines laid down in the bible, ie accepting Jesus so to speak... In which case it wouldn't matter as long as you lived life in good morality. And living a bad life would mean you would still go to hell... even if you accept Jesus at the end, because you need to pay for your crimes and you didn't "accept" Jesus when it mattered.

I don't know if I am explaining myself correctly, its just it seems to be a last minute get out clause for bad people... a way for them to say... It's OK I can do what I want... I just have to accept Jesus on my death bed. Why be good in the first place? If you get my meaning.

yep totally agree with that

I hope you dont feel like we're ganging up on you PP, its just a really fascinating debate and I hope your enjoying the challenge and not feeling offended

On the subject of accepting Jesus though, ive never fully understood that. I know he was a real person because of the historical records...he existed. I believe he was a good man and had some very special gifts (the same that many non-christians have today such as foresight, healing abilities, good leadership skills) and tried to use these gifts to help his fellows, I believe that he was crucified because of these gifts (as I mentioned in a previous post) and I believe these things as a rational, intelligent and realistic person. So whats the difference between this, and accepting him?

 

[Krystal]

yes Squiglet thats exactly what I meant in my previous post

 

[PinkPunch]

Pinkpunch, its really refreshing that someone with such faith can take part in these kinds of debates

I agree, you know what you believe and I respect that.

I know the creation theory seems to be rearing its ugly misguided head again, but do you really believe the world and man was created within a week? That the world is only 5000 years old? That we walked with dinosaurs? If most intelligent Christians can admit that seems a bit far-fetched....well what about the rest of it?

I think your expecting me to say "No, I don't believe that" and then you'll say.. "why pick and choose what you believe from the bible" lol

But in actual fact, I DO believe the world was made in 6 days and it IS only around 5,000 years old. When you believe in the almighty God like I do, absolutely nothing is impossible for him. Infact, he could have done it in 1 day but 6days is significance to how we should work/rest.

EXODUS 20:
9Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:

10But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

11For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

My point is, the Bible, new and old testament, was written by Man not by God. By many men actually.

I agree! The bible was written over 2 thousand years by men and yet, it remains consistent with for example a prophecy that was written.. and then fullfilled by two different men that will never meet on earth

However, I believe the bible to be inspired by God.. he himself made the distinction.

"Why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?" Luke 6:46. Jesus asked this question to those try to make a false distinction between his person and his word.

35If he called them 'gods,' to whom the word of God came—and the Scripture cannot be broken'

1Chor 2 v 13
13This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words.[a]

God told these men what to write and because of that, I don't believe there are any errors in Gods word. I agree that it was originally written in Hebrew and Greek and we need to be careful of the translations into English. But the original text is inspired by God through these men.

 

[Squiglet]

I hope you dont feel like we're ganging up on you PP, its just a really fascinating debate and I hope your enjoying the challenge and not feeling offended

Oooo no.. don't want to feel like we are ganging up... I'm really enjoying the debate

 

[Squiglet]

God told these men what to write and because of that, I don't believe there are any errors in Gods word. I agree that it was originally written in Hebrew and Greek and we need to be careful of the translations into English. But the original text is inspired by God through these men.

Ok...lets take this statement as true... The original text was inspired by God through these men (Matthew, Mark, Luke and John would probably have written their text in Ancient Arameic by the way rather than Hebrew)... What about all the other men that have come since and have translated the bible What if they got it wrong? Even just a few words, but a few words can completely change the context of the text... We have to accept that there would have been at least one or two translation mistakes over thousands of years right?

 

[PinkPunch]

I could go out now, stand in the middle of the street and murder thousands of children with an assualt rifle... yet as long as I "accept" Jesus, before I die... I go to heaven...

I don't think you understand what im saying.. saying the words "I accept Jesus" or "im sorry" doesn't save you.

Asking Jesus for forgiveness and turning away from your sin is what I mean by "accept". Declaring to Jesus that you are a sinner and that Jesus took your place on the cross. IF you talk to Jesus and mean what you say, Jesus will save you.. regardless of your lifestyle.. no one is to "bad" to be forgiven. But thats a good thing, no matter what you have done, Jesus will accept you. The bible tells us this time and time again.

When Jesus went to visit Simon, a prositute came in to see Jesus and worshipped him, she poured expensive perfume on his feet and kissed him feet.. Poeple were mad that such a sinful woman could do such things in other words she shouldn't have been near him as she was a sinner. What did Jesus do? Did he say "your too sinful for heaven, go away"??

No.. he replied to Simon ""Do you see this woman? I came into your house. You did not give me any water for my feet, but she wet my feet with her tears and wiped them with her hair. 45You did not give me a kiss, but this woman, from the time I entered, has not stopped kissing my feet. 46You did not put oil on my head, but she has poured perfume on my feet. 47Therefore, I tell you, her many sins have been forgiven—for she loved much. But he who has been forgiven little loves little."

48Then Jesus said to her, "Your sins are forgiven."

49The other guests began to say among themselves, "Who is this who even forgives sins?"

50Jesus said to the woman, "Your faith has saved you; go in peace."

So.. Regardless of her sinful lifestyle, she had faith that Jesus was the true God and humbled herself.. and because of this, Jesus saved her.

We need to leave pride at the door.. we all do wrong things, no one is too bad for heaven and certainly no one is too good. We can't declare ourselves more worthy of heaven than others.

 

[PinkPunch]

We have to accept that there would have been at least one or two translation mistakes over thousands of years right?

Translation mistakes, yes I will certainly agree with that. I know people who study the greek texts only.. which is great if you know greek

 

[uncle_bens]

Thats so true, you know that christians like to emphasise, Begotton, not made.

John A-V {3:16} For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

In the revised Standard Versions of the Bible, begotten has been taken out of the Gospels because it was not used in the most ancient manuscript, and these are theologens and Bible scholars.

Exodus A-V {4:22} And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel [is] my son, [even] my firstborn

Psalms A-V {82:6} I have said, Ye [are] gods; and all of you [are] children of the most High.

PS I love Jesus, I believe he was the Messiah, no doubt, just not divine in my beliefs. One who is created is not the creater

 

[Squiglet]

I could go out now, stand in the middle of the street and murder thousands of children with an assualt rifle... yet as long as I "accept" Jesus, before I die... I go to heaven...

I don't think you understand what im saying.. saying the words "I accept Jesus" or "im sorry" doesn't save you.

Asking Jesus for forgiveness and turning away from your sin is what I mean by "accept". Declaring to Jesus that you are a sinner and that Jesus took your place on the cross. IF you talk to Jesus and mean what you say, Jesus will save you.. regardless of your lifestyle.. no one is to "bad" to be forgiven. But thats a good thing, no matter what you have done, Jesus will accept you. The bible tells us this time and time again.

But that's what I mean... I can do what I want... the ten commandments mean nothing... I can sin as much as I want to... but as long as I accept Jesus, acknowledge my sins, beg forgiveness, I go to heaven.

I can worship the devil, and rape little children... but as long as I say to Jesus... I am a sinner, please forgive me... I am granted an eternal place in paradise.

There is no consequence... no punishment...no need to be a good Christian, attend church, follow the word of god... because I am not going to hell. Why are people even afraid of hell or the Devil?..

I know the teachings of Christ that you have mentioned because I was raised a Catholic... and we had confession, where we were taught about asking forgiveness.. (its one of the reasons I left the faith because I couldn't correspond it to my personal beliefs) but even under Catholisim, you still end up paying a price in hell for your bad deeds... you cannot just enter heaven because you "accept" Jesus... that's not enough.

 

[PinkPunch]

hope you dont feel like we're ganging up on you PP,

Not all all! Im usually in the minority

So whats the difference between this, and accepting him?

Well we both agree Jesus was alive etc.. the difference is that Jesus IS God.. so when you accept Jesus, you accept God.

Let me explain from personal experience. Other people may laugh at me, but I have a personal relationship with God. I believe God created us and our very beings were made for his purpose. When I accepted Christ, everything sort of, fell into place. I felt a sense of contentment, belonging, a purpose in life, and a strong love for Jesus for even saving me in the first place. I can honestly say, hand on my heart, that I will see Jesus in heaven. Thats nothing to do with you ladies and your views, im just saying thats how certain I am.

Im not saying being a believer is always easy, infact its harder at times, but to know God is walking with me everyday is just amazing and I know him

 

[PinkPunch]

christians like to emphasise, Begotton, not made.

You've got to love generalisations

 

[PinkPunch]

you cannot just enter heaven because you "accept" Jesus... that's not enough.

Squig, thats why I'm not a catholic. The pope, the beads, the holy water, the confessions to men etc is all meaningless to me. You don't need to confess to priests, Jesus is the mediator to God!

"Jesus is God our Savior, the one mediator between God and men... The King of kings and Lord of lords"

God deals with people in his own way. "You have sinned against the Lord; and be sure your sin will find you out." Numbers 32:23

 

[Squiglet]

Well we both agree Jesus was alive etc.. the difference is that Jesus IS God.. so when you accept Jesus, you accept God.

Ok the explanations make more sense now...

Most Christians don't accept Christ IS God... He was the son of God... but was a man... and that was the whole reasoning behind him dying and suffering for our sins.

Its why he was so afraid before his death, because of the pain he would have to suffer... because like any man, he was afraid of his own mortality... A god is eternal and therefore would not be afraid of death, because they cannot die. Also the fact of him being resurrected into heaven... again a consequence of him being a man. Again the holy trinity would not be in existance if Jesus was God... ie. the father the son and the holy ghost... but then I am talking Catholic Dogma here rather than generalised Christian belief I think?...

 

[elaine22]

This is really interesting

I just have a question about the whole creation/world being 6000 years old theory. When I was at uni I took an archaeology module and learnt about various dating techniques that were able to date things like wood, clay and rock to way back before 6000 years. I just wondered how people who believed in the creation theory viewed this?