mohammed teddy bear *edit* poll added

Sleep well Pink Punch...
What I am trying to say is that it seems there is one rule for one and another for someone else. While Adam becomes Christian because he accepts God but didn't accept Christ, other biblical figures... such as Moses don't have the same privilege because they didn't accept Christ, even though Christ didn't exist... (ok did that make any sense)... because they are Jews.
Ok there are two distinctions here.

1) Before Jesus came to earth - How did people get to heaven? Well we know these men went to heaven/paradise 'Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, Elijah, Isaiah' but how? They did not know about Jesus yet. Romans 4v3 says "3What does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."

So although he hadn't heard of "Jesus".. he believed in God and is now in heaven.

Take a look at Psalm 19v1-4 "The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament shows His handiwork.ÊDay unto day utters speech, and night unto night reveals knowledge. There is no speech nor language where their voice is not heard. Their line has gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world."

So even the heathens who had never heard of Jesus acknowledged that there was a creator because of all the haniwork they saw in the beauty of creation.

2) Now that Jesus has come - how do we get to heaven? This is were there is no inconsistency that you talked about because after Jesus came, the only way we can get to heaven is to... believe in God (that there is a designed / creator) and acknowledge Jesus was the son of God who became flesh for us.

I have made several references to people who the world consider evil but Christian non the less...
and just because Hitler said he was a Christian, you think he was? God is the only one who really knows. I could easily say "Im a christian, I go to church" but that doesnt necessarily mean i have given my life to God. Know what I mean? Theres too much emphasis on this word "Christian" - its a change of heart, not a title.

yet no one has been able to confirm to me whether they get to live in heaven?
You want someone to tell you whether or not someone like Hitler went to heaven or hell? God is the only judge, how would I know hitlers heart? although im guessing hes not in heaven but again, thats not up to me to decide.

The question is can a truly evil people get into heaven, even if they repent... yet good people (and I mean really good ones... ones that change the world for the better, save lives etc)... go to hell. I think its this reason I left Christianity... I could not understand how a God that was forgiving and loving and caring as the bible protests him to be (New Testament) could possibly allow such injustice and evil to prevail in his own house... and in turn destroys the validity of the words he supposedly lays down in the book Christians use to back this argument up.
I look at it a totally different way :wink: Your saying, that its ridiculous of God to let "bad" people into heaven and let "good" people go to hell.. when God is so loving and so gracious to let EVERYONE into his kingdom!!

e.g a murder and someone who looks after orphaned children.. both may have different lifestyles and you would assume that God should only let the good lady go to heaven and let the other one suffer.. but jesus died for "all" - the kind lady has every opportunity to accpet Jesus, its her descision if she decides not to. Its got nothing to do with the murder.
 
I think (but no expert) that a truly good person goes to heaven regardless of their belief.
But how do you even know heaven exists if you didn't get that from the bible.

The bible doesn't say good people go to heaven regardless.. how can someone who says "I don't believe theres a God, I dont love him.. but I look after sick kids - I hope to be in heaven (with God) someday".

We are all sinners in Gods eyes, we need to repent and ask God to make us pure in his sight.
 
I guess I just don't understand how so many people, like PP, can be 100% sure of everything - can't we all just say 'let's wait and see' instead of claiming to know all the answers?
No no, im not saying I know everything lol What im saying is in certain in my faith and what I believe in.. just wanted to clarify that lol

But I can't understand how someone can say "lets just see what happens when we die" bit late then.. you'll be in the after life.

2 Corinthians 6
1As God's fellow workers we urge you not to receive God's grace in vain. 2For he says,
"In the time of my favor I heard you,
and in the day of salvation I helped you."[a] I tell you, now is the time of God's favor, now is the day of salvation.

:hug:
 
what good does religion bring to the world as a whole?
"religion" brings confusion, misguidence, death, fighting, war etc.

Any "religion" or any worship which is not for God, is aganist God. I believe the devil has misguided people with other "religions" and "Gods" and from what someone said earlier about the world being a better place without it, suggests that what the devil is doing, is working.
 
TeenAsmaTeam said:
If you look through History, there have been so many times when Muslims and Christians lived together perfectly peacefully, like in Spain, Al Andalus! The contributed to the culture, architecture and there were no civil wars then. When you bring in politics there's always an issue.

I'm not sure i understand Lou, u mean if there wa sno religion there'd be no problem coz there wouldnt be anythign to insult? If there where no black people there'd be no Klu Klux clan, so lets eradicate them?

Religion gets blamed for most wars, good tactic that by most governments. When in fact war is mostly caused to gain oil (Iraq war) America used 911 as an excuse to get to Iraqs oil, most wars are also caused by the need for land.

XX

xx
 
PinkPunch said:
Sleep well Pink Punch...
What I am trying to say is that it seems there is one rule for one and another for someone else. While Adam becomes Christian because he accepts God but didn't accept Christ, other biblical figures... such as Moses don't have the same privilege because they didn't accept Christ, even though Christ didn't exist... (ok did that make any sense)... because they are Jews.
Ok there are two distinctions here.

1) Before Jesus came to earth - How did people get to heaven? Well we know these men went to heaven/paradise 'Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, Elijah, Isaiah' but how? They did not know about Jesus yet. Romans 4v3 says "3What does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."

So although he hadn't heard of "Jesus".. he believed in God and is now in heaven.

Take a look at Psalm 19v1-4 "The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament shows His handiwork.ÊDay unto day utters speech, and night unto night reveals knowledge. There is no speech nor language where their voice is not heard. Their line has gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world."

So even the heathens who had never heard of Jesus acknowledged that there was a creator because of all the haniwork they saw in the beauty of creation.

2) Now that Jesus has come - how do we get to heaven? This is were there is no inconsistency that you talked about because after Jesus came, the only way we can get to heaven is to... believe in God (that there is a designed / creator) and acknowledge Jesus was the son of God who became flesh for us.

[quote:3u7c5tk1]I have made several references to people who the world consider evil but Christian non the less...
and just because Hitler said he was a Christian, you think he was? God is the only one who really knows. I could easily say "Im a christian, I go to church" but that doesnt necessarily mean i have given my life to God. Know what I mean? Theres too much emphasis on this word "Christian" - its a change of heart, not a title.

yet no one has been able to confirm to me whether they get to live in heaven?
You want someone to tell you whether or not someone like Hitler went to heaven or hell? God is the only judge, how would I know hitlers heart? although im guessing hes not in heaven but again, thats not up to me to decide.

The question is can a truly evil people get into heaven, even if they repent... yet good people (and I mean really good ones... ones that change the world for the better, save lives etc)... go to hell. I think its this reason I left Christianity... I could not understand how a God that was forgiving and loving and caring as the bible protests him to be (New Testament) could possibly allow such injustice and evil to prevail in his own house... and in turn destroys the validity of the words he supposedly lays down in the book Christians use to back this argument up.
I look at it a totally different way :wink: Your saying, that its ridiculous of God to let "bad" people into heaven and let "good" people go to hell.. when God is so loving and so gracious to let EVERYONE into his kingdom!!

e.g a murder and someone who looks after orphaned children.. both may have different lifestyles and you would assume that God should only let the good lady go to heaven and let the other one suffer.. but jesus died for "all" - the kind lady has every opportunity to accpet Jesus, its her descision if she decides not to. Its got nothing to do with the murder.[/quote:3u7c5tk1]

No... what I'm saying is... lets for the sake of everyone here, say that you are right PP... that just by accepting Jesus as God our Saviour grants you access instantly to heaven regardless of your crimes during you life... why bother to live by the bible at all? What point is there to the bible? I could just take your word and believe what you say, accept Jesus as the one and only true God, and if I die tomorrow I go straight to heaven. ( I work in customer care, and there are many clients that believe people based on their words alone :roll: )

Alternatively lets say you are are wrong PP, and you need to also live your life by the bible.. just accepting Jesus isn't enough, you have to live your life by his word, which is also written in the bible, which means that just by accepting Jesus alone, that isn't enough to grant you access to heaven...

Did that make sense.. ?? It's basically contradictory... The bible teaches two things that aren't mutually exclusive. Lead a good life by the bible, by the teachings of Jesus...go to heaven.... or in your view... Accept Jesus as God your saviour... go to heaven. Which is correct? You can't say that your view is correct without saying there was no point to the parables that Jesus spoke in order to guide his disciples in the correct way of living.

Why live in a correct way when you know as long as you repent at the end of it all, you are home free.

I have no issue with believing that Christians might be on to something... IF and only IF... its based on the fact that a great man called Jesus was trying to teach us to be good, honest people...and our reward for that is to go to Heaven. Forget my personal belief.. I live outside the box.. always have done... I do believe that there was a Jesus Christ....and I do believe he was a remarkable person... and possessed great powers from "God" but to say that just to repent is good enough, for me, devalues Jesus' teachings in a way... Why would he want us to be good honest people, if we are just going to get into heaven anyway. And that is an utter shame because he spoke wise words and great truths.

I personally think that the gospels of Matthew Mark Luke and John have been altered greatly. Well we know that they are not original texts... and I think that somethings have been altered to provide get out clauses for people who knew Jesus was telling us to live a good life to go to heaven, but because they chose not to, they get to just say well you can repent at the end.

I don't need to be told who can and cannot get into heaven... I'm not denying your belief in Jesus or God or that it is correct.. I'm just saying that your personal interpretation of the bible might be flawed.

You say... accept Jesus as your Saviour, as God, that he died for your sins. Well all Christians must believe that as that's the principle teaching of Christianity... What I am saying is that can't be enough... you need to "be" Christian.. Christ like too.. Not perfect... no.. Jesus wasn't perfect, we are taught this when he was tempted in the desert... and his fear before he died... but to live by his teachings, by his example.

As for wars and religion... as I have said previously... Wars aren't created by religion... they are created by the need for power and a crazy man in power, who then uses religion to motivate his population. :roll:
 
Welcome back PP, hope your stomach is better :hug:

I understand what your saying abut the DNA thing, and im impressed that you know so much more than me about genetics :lol:

I agree that based on the DNA similarities alone, its perfectly feasible that its because we all came from the same source and not down to evolution...infact I believe we do all come from the source...I just call it something different to you :wink:

However, theres a lot more evidence that sides with evolution. For example the fossil record of change in earlier species, the geographic distribution of related species, and the recorded genetic changes in living organisms over many generations. Not just human either, as we are not the only species to evolve.

But as you rightly say, neither of us are experts, all we really have is our own personal opinions based on the information available to us, so Im happy to agree to disagree and move on :)

Btw, love the idea of having the same organs as a banana :rotfl:

As for the getting into heaven thing, OH and I recently had this discussion as he was raised a Muslim and is now an agnostic, whereas I was raised very oddly and am now a pantheist/spiritualist/pagan/witch (still have no idea what to call myself hehe) so we have some very different ideas about what happens after death. He believes that we just die and thats it, end of story, but after my own experiences I feel differently.

I believe at the moment (i say at the moment because all my beliefs are organic in a sense and im aware I may see or experience something that will change my mind as has happened many times in the past....its a journey) that when we die, we go to some kind of universal energy, home, where we came from, and there we are given the choice to go back and try something new or move on to a place where we are free of the physical and are just.....I dont know something we cant comprehend right now. Free. I believe we are on the physical plane to learn and experience, just because its here and we can, and when we return to the spiritual plane we are completely enlightened and remember every second of every life we have lived. There may be things that frustrate us because in every life we have made the same mistakes and want to go back and try to solve it, which is where my beliefs in karma differ slightly to the norm.

Let me relay a very potent experience to you to explain what I mean.

All my life I have had this memory...that I still have today...of being a young boy of about 7, standing on a wooden pier among many adults, and clinging onto a woman...who I have always presumed to have been my mother in that life. The women were wearing very big long layered skirts, but thats all I remember is the skirts, probably because of my height lol, and some of them were weeping. They were all trying to see something and I couldnt see anything, being lost in a sea of skirts, and a woman near me shouted out "that was the kings favourite ship!"

Its a real solid memory, not a dream or something I saw on TV, I remember being that boy, I remember it in the same way I remember being a young girl in this life.

Due to this memory, I went for past-life regression. However I didnt regress to that life, but to another. I was a young woman of 21, living in London in 1898. I had 2 young children who were sick and dying, and a husband who was a drunkard, a womaniser and gambler, and who beat me. I jumped off a bridge and can remember the feeling of falling through the air, and the panic as I realised the split second I jumped that it was a mistake, I didnt want to die, I didnt want to leave my children. I remember hitting the water and how cold it was, it made my head hurt, and then I was drowning, trying to find my way back to the surface. At that moment I was brought out of the regression as apparantly I was struggling to breathe.

Back in this life, when I was 21....around 4 years after the regression...I had 2 children, and was with a man who was an alcoholic, he cheated regularly, and was violent. My children weren't sick thank god, but I was more or less in the same situation and often contemplated suicide. It was only remembering the regression and the panic I felt at leaving my children that stopped me, and now 11 years later I know that regression saved my life.

But what if I hadnt of had the regression and caught a glimpse of a past mistake, that I was fated to relive in this life to get right?

Its an experience i'll never forget, and one day I'll find out what happened to that little boy on the pier :lol:

As a side note, when my eldest daughter was a toddler, she used to ask for her "favorit red trousees". She didnt have any red trousers, and when told this she would say "I did when I was a boy!" :shock: :think:
 
No... what I'm saying is... lets for the sake of everyone here, say that you are right PP... that just by accepting Jesus as God our Saviour grants you access instantly to heaven regardless of your crimes during you life... why bother to live by the bible at all? What point is there to the bible? I could just take your word and believe what you say, accept Jesus as the one and only true God, and if I die tomorrow I go straight to heaven. ( I work in customer care, and there are many clients that believe people based on their words alone )

Alternatively lets say you are are wrong PP, and you need to also live your life by the bible.. just accepting Jesus isn't enough, you have to live your life by his word, which is also written in the bible, which means that just by accepting Jesus alone, that isn't enough to grant you access to heaven...

Did that make sense.. ?? It's basically contradictory... The bible teaches two things that aren't mutually exclusive. Lead a good life by the bible, by the teachings of Jesus...go to heaven.... or in your view... Accept Jesus as God your saviour... go to heaven. Which is correct? You can't say that your view is correct without saying there was no point to the parables that Jesus spoke in order to guide his disciples in the correct way of living.

We really are going round in circles on this topic.. your disagreeing with me and yet I don't even believe in the points your disagreeing with.. Don't take this the wrong way but I don't think you get the hang on what im saying. Its not contradictory and I don't know how else to explain it!

I have to leave now but just quickly before tomorrow... lol...

why bother to live by the bible at all? What point is there to the bible?
A true believer does not have this attitude so if they thought that at all, they wouldn't have true faith. Again, its not magic words that you say and then live however you want.. thats not what it means.

When you accept Jesus you change and desire to know him more and study hsi word. You no longer want the same things that you did before - Its a whole change of life and purpose.. not "i accept, now i'll live the way I want and get to heaven anyway" Gods not stupid...

Must dash, c ya tomorrow morning xx :hug:
 
Hi GGG :D

I am always so interested when you speak about these experiences, I personally think that there is definately something in it.

When I was around 3 I used to sit with my nan and tell her about my many children I had to look after on a farm, I spoke about my husband and the children we had. I also used to wander around my garden with a stick telling my mum that I was looking after the sheep. I like to think that this could be a past life experience.

I also had a lot of 'imaginary' brothers and sisters and named them all, still remember their names:
Danny, Jane, Tina, Michelle, then me, Graham, Kevin and Tom. I only just realised recently that the first name is what we're calling our first born, Daniel.
I don't think that there's anything strange about having imaginary friends, especially as I was an only child, but I was never lonely, I always had a lot of friends around me from quite a young age.

Getting back to the christian belief, I totally respect what christians believe, but I really can't get my head around their concept of satan, who I regard as the God Pan and not an evil demon/fallen angel.
A few christians I have known in the past seem to blame evil things in the world including nasty things that have happened to them on this devil and not on mans own actions. I have also known some christians in the past who seemed more preoccupied with this devil.

Just my opinion :)
 
kazlin said:
Hi GGG :D

I am always so interested when you speak about these experiences, I personally think that there is definately something in it.

When I was around 3 I used to sit with my nan and tell her about my many children I had to look after on a farm, I spoke about my husband and the children we had. I also used to wander around my garden with a stick telling my mum that I was looking after the sheep. I like to think that this could be a past life experience.

I also had a lot of 'imaginary' brothers and sisters and named them all, still remember their names:
Danny, Jane, Tina, Michelle, then me, Graham, Kevin and Tom. I only just realised recently that the first name is what we're calling our first born, Daniel.

I don't think that there's anything strange about having imaginary friends, especially as I was an only child, but I was never lonely, I always had a lot of friends around me from quite a young age.

Getting back to the christian belief, I totally respect what christians believe, but I really can't get my head around their concept of satan, who I regard as the God Pan and not an evil demon/fallen angel.
A few christians I have known in the past seem to blame evil things in the world including nasty things that have happened to them on this devil and not mans own actions. I have also known some christians in the past who seemed more preoccupied with this devil.

Just my opinion :)

Hi babes :hug: :hug:

I love hearing about your experiences aswell.....for those that dont know Kaz and I have known eachother a long time and consider ourselves soul-sisters and definitely knew eachother in a past-life :lol:

Absolutely agree with you on people blaming satan for the worlds ills and not mans actions.....its just too easy to blame an external force and not have to deal with the collective ego eh! :think:

Remember spiderwoman? :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:
 
glitzyglamgirl said:
kazlin said:
Hi GGG :D

I am always so interested when you speak about these experiences, I personally think that there is definately something in it.

When I was around 3 I used to sit with my nan and tell her about my many children I had to look after on a farm, I spoke about my husband and the children we had. I also used to wander around my garden with a stick telling my mum that I was looking after the sheep. I like to think that this could be a past life experience.

I also had a lot of 'imaginary' brothers and sisters and named them all, still remember their names:
Danny, Jane, Tina, Michelle, then me, Graham, Kevin and Tom. I only just realised recently that the first name is what we're calling our first born, Daniel.

I don't think that there's anything strange about having imaginary friends, especially as I was an only child, but I was never lonely, I always had a lot of friends around me from quite a young age.

Getting back to the christian belief, I totally respect what christians believe, but I really can't get my head around their concept of satan, who I regard as the God Pan and not an evil demon/fallen angel.
A few christians I have known in the past seem to blame evil things in the world including nasty things that have happened to them on this devil and not mans own actions. I have also known some christians in the past who seemed more preoccupied with this devil.

Just my opinion :)

Hi babes :hug: :hug:

I love hearing about your experiences aswell.....for those that dont know Kaz and I have known eachother a long time and consider ourselves soul-sisters and definitely knew eachother in a past-life :lol:

Absolutely agree with you on people blaming satan for the worlds ills and not mans actions.....its just too easy to blame an external force and not have to deal with the collective ego eh! :think:

Remember spiderwoman? :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

Yep, me and this girl have had some strange experiences...and through a few lifetimes no doubt, lol.

(who knows we may have even been spiders...I bet we knew Squiglet around that time too :wink: :rotfl: )

Ok Squiglet, I'll shut up now..and get that song out of your head! :lol:
 
kazlin said:
glitzyglamgirl said:
kazlin said:
Hi GGG :D

I am always so interested when you speak about these experiences, I personally think that there is definately something in it.

When I was around 3 I used to sit with my nan and tell her about my many children I had to look after on a farm, I spoke about my husband and the children we had. I also used to wander around my garden with a stick telling my mum that I was looking after the sheep. I like to think that this could be a past life experience.

I also had a lot of 'imaginary' brothers and sisters and named them all, still remember their names:
Danny, Jane, Tina, Michelle, then me, Graham, Kevin and Tom. I only just realised recently that the first name is what we're calling our first born, Daniel.

I don't think that there's anything strange about having imaginary friends, especially as I was an only child, but I was never lonely, I always had a lot of friends around me from quite a young age.

Getting back to the christian belief, I totally respect what christians believe, but I really can't get my head around their concept of satan, who I regard as the God Pan and not an evil demon/fallen angel.
A few christians I have known in the past seem to blame evil things in the world including nasty things that have happened to them on this devil and not mans own actions. I have also known some christians in the past who seemed more preoccupied with this devil.

Just my opinion :)

Hi babes :hug: :hug:

I love hearing about your experiences aswell.....for those that dont know Kaz and I have known eachother a long time and consider ourselves soul-sisters and definitely knew eachother in a past-life :lol:

Absolutely agree with you on people blaming satan for the worlds ills and not mans actions.....its just too easy to blame an external force and not have to deal with the collective ego eh! :think:

Remember spiderwoman? :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

Yep, me and this girl have had some strange experiences...and through a few lifetimes no doubt, lol.

(we may even have been spiders...I bet we knew Squiglet around that time too :wink: :rotfl: )

some very strange yet very unscary experiences :lol: And I wouldnt be surprised if squig was a spider with us haha :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

No...we dont really think we were spiders....honest....but we once met a VERY peculiar girl who was obsessed with them and claimed all kinds of things including how her boyfriend had let himself become possessed by demons so they could have sex with her :shock:

But we have also met an angel, had the most bizarre psychic experiences together, and whenever we're together (not enough :cry: ) theres just this energy in the air that ive never felt before, like we just KNOW something weird and wonderful is going to happen, and it usually does! :)
 
Talking about previous lives, I have a memory too, of being about 3 years old and walking hurriedly down a street, holding a woman's hand. I get the feeling she was my mum and she towered over me. The street was a town street with very tall buildings. There was a noise which I now recognise as an air raid siren (I can remember hearing it for the first time in this life and recognising it very well) and as I look up at the building I notice a dome shaped building nearby, like that of St Pauls Cathedral.

I've always wondered about this.

And up until a few months ago my 4 yr old had another mummy and daddy and a baby sister that she had to leave so now she lives with me. She spoke about them for over a year and would sometimes see them in her dreams. It was quite heartbreaking the way she missed them and would speak about them in a sad voice :(
 
I don't have any memories of past lives but I have had what sounds alot like a near death experience. But more likely just an hallucination :wink:

I was very poorly in hospital with pylonephritus (a kidney infection) and I thought I was going to die. I was in so much pain and drugged up with pethadine. I was tingling all over and could hardly breathe (this is the reason I refused pethadine at Isaac's birth) anyway yeah so I was lying on my back and I was aware of people around me when all of a sudden I felt myself lifting and floating and jesus was standing at the end of my bed holding his arms out to me. I remember thinking 'this is it, but I'm not ready' sort of thing then it all stopped. After when I was better and I told my mum she said I had lifted both my arms up off of the bed and she had rested them back down onto the bed :shock:

I think I was probably delirious and hallucinating but weird that I would hallucinate jesus because I'm not religious :think:
 
A few christians I have known in the past seem to blame evil things in the world including nasty things that have happened to them on this devil and not on mans own actions.
Couldn't agree more. Thats along the lines of what I've been saying that we are all sinners and always will be. However, being a Christian, Satan DOES try to discourage us and separate us from living a Godly life. Its a spiritual battle going on all around us. :)

I like to think that this could be a past life experience.
Maybe thats just it. :D

Some of you are saying to me "I like the idea of Karma" or "Yes, I like that idea too".. but its so much more than just what we "like" to worship or what we would like to think will happen when we die.. for instance, everyone likes the idea of heaven.. 'so lets just believe we will get there regardless of actually thinking there is a God..lets leave out all that satan stuff, I dont like that..'

However, theres a lot more evidence that sides with evolution. For example the fossil record of change in earlier species, the geographic distribution of related species, and the recorded genetic changes in living organisms over many generations. Not just human either, as we are not the only species to evolve.
.. and likewise there is evidence that evolution is based on a theory. Do you realise that IF these evolutists are wrong about the amount of time the world has been alive for, the scientific evidence matches the bibles record? So how certain are you that the carbon dating method is accurate? As I said before, its not fact - so how can you be certain?

What is carbon dating?

"Radiocarbon is continuously created in the atmosphere through bombardment of nitrogen-14 (14N) by neutrons created by cosmic radiation. 14C, with a half-life of 5730 years, decays back to 14N . . . As long as the production rate remains constant, the radioactivity of natural carbon remains constant because [the] rate of production balances the rate of decay."

"While an organism is alive and is taking in carbon from the atmosphere, it contains this balanced proportion of 14C. However, at death the balance is upset, because replenishment by life processes such as feeding, breathing and photosynthesis ceases. The 14C in dead tissues continually decreases by radioactive decay" (Brian Skinner and Stephen Porter, 1989, pp. 138-139). By measuring the amount of carbon-14 and comparing that amount to the original, scientists can obtain a date for the death of the organism."

Is it accurate?

"There are many problems with the dates obtained through this method. For example, dating living mollusks by the carbon-14 method often yields clearly errant results—for instance, finding the mollusks to be up to 2,300 years old ("Radiocarbon Dating: Fictitious Results With Mollusk Shells," Science, Vol. 141, p. 634). Carbon-14 dating methods are obviously affected by the environment. "

"Archaeologist John McRay notes: "Unfortunately, several recent discoveries combine to indicate that carbon 14 is not as valuable as was once hoped: (1) radioactive carbon atoms may not have existed in the earth's atmosphere before 2000 B.C.; (2) the natural concentration of carbon 14 in the atmosphere has varied in certain periods, and (3) there is a high probability of sample contamination" (Archaeology and the New Testament, 1991, p. 34)."

"Recently a new method—accelerator mass spectrometry—has been used to date ancient items. This method has given a different date than previously accepted for the earliest Mayan civilization. "

"The oldest known Maya turns out to be younger than archaeologists originally believed. The remains of a woman found below a layered platform at a site called Cuello in northern Belize had been thought to be more than 4,000 years old . . . As a result of new dating methods, about a thousand years have been trimmed from the chronology. Norman Hammond of Boston University, who began digging at Cuello in the 1970s, says the remains now are believed to be from about 1200 B.C., still earlier than any other known Maya settlement. "

"The accelerator mass spectrometer allows scientists to analyze the bones of the ancient Maya without severely damaging them. The new technique can date carbon samples weighing only a few milligrams; a specimen the size of a match head will do" ("Oldest Known Maya: Not Quite So Old," National Geographic, November 1990). Here a new dating method has changed by 1,000 years the earliest accepted date of Mayan civilization. "

"Consider then. Radiometric dating methods (those measuring geologic time by rate of radioactive decay) have been used to date formations that could be associated with Noah's Flood. These dates supposedly prove these formations are millions of years old rather than thousands. Yet we find that different methods can yield radically different results. "

"As The Science of Evolution explains: "Several methods have been devised for estimating the age of the earth and its layers of rocks. These methods rely heavily on the assumption of uniformitarianism, i.e., natural processes have proceeded at relatively constant rates throughout the earth's history . . . It is obvious that radiometric techniques may not be the absolute dating methods that they are claimed to be. Age estimates on a given geological stratum by different radiometric methods are often quite different (sometimes by hundreds of millions of years). There is no absolutely reliable long-term radiological 'clock'" (William Stansfield, 1977, pp. 80, 84). "

"The potassium-argon [K-Ar] dating method, used to date lava flows, also has problems—as shown by studies of Mount St. Helens. "The conventional K-Ar dating method was applied to the 1986 dacite flow from the new lava dome at Mount St. Helens, Washington. Porphyritic dacite which solidified on the surface of the lava dome in 1986 gives a whole rock K-Ar 'age' of 0.35 + OR - 0.05 million years (Ma). Mineral concentrates from this same dacite give K-Ar 'ages' from 0.35 + OR - .06 Ma to 2.8 + OR - 0.6 Ma. These 'ages' are, of course, preposterous [since we know the rock formed recently]. The fundamental dating assumption ('no radiogenic argon was present when the rock formed') is questioned by these data. "

"Instead, data from this Mount St. Helens dacite argue that significant 'excess argon' was present when the lava solidified in 1986 . . . This study of Mount St. Helens dacite causes the more fundamental question to be asked—how accurate are K-Ar 'ages' from the many other phenocryst-containing lava flows worldwide?" (Stephen Austin, "Excess Argon within Mineral Concentrates from the New Dacite Lava Dome at Mount St. Helens Volcano," Creation Ex Nihilo Technical Journal, Vol. 10, No. 3, 1996, pp. 335-344). "

Conclusion:

"In layman's terms, these volcanic rocks that we know were formed in 1986—less than 20 years ago—were "scientifically" dated to between 290,000 and 3.4 million years old!"

"Such examples serve to illustrate the fallibility of the dating methods on which many modern scientists rely so heavily."

.. and thats the end of my post.. are you fed up with me yet? :rotfl: :hug:
 
PinkPunch said:
.. and thats the end of my post.. are you fed up with me yet? :rotfl: :hug:

aw could never get fed up of you hun, your far too interesting to talk to :lol: :hug:

Im purposefully ignoring the evolution stuff, as I think its time we agreed to disagree on that one....neither of us can prove it either way, and I wont change my mind and you wont change yours, as fascinating as it is :)

PinkPunch said:
A few christians I have known in the past seem to blame evil things in the world including nasty things that have happened to them on this devil and not on mans own actions.
Couldn't agree more. Thats along the lines of what I've been saying that we are all sinners and always will be. However, being a Christian, Satan DOES try to discourage us and separate us from living a Godly life. Its a spiritual battle going on all around us. :)

[quote:2p7fh7o3]I like to think that this could be a past life experience.
Maybe thats just it. :D

Some of you are saying to me "I like the idea of Karma" or "Yes, I like that idea too".. but its so much more than just what we "like" to worship or what we would like to think will happen when we die.. for instance, everyone likes the idea of heaven.. 'so lets just believe we will get there regardless of actually thinking there is a God..lets leave out all that satan stuff, I dont like that..' [/quote:2p7fh7o3]

Ive never said I just like the idea of karma or past-lives, I believe it, but not in anyway shape or form have I just left out bits I dont like :) Besides....I dont believe in these things in a christian sense, but in a metaphorical and spiritual sense. I dont believe in Christians beliefs fullstop, im not even partly Christian, unless believing Jesus existed and lived counts :lol:

It seems your suggesting (correct me if Im wrong) that karma and past-life is something people just take from christianity, like they are picking and choosing the best bits and leaving out the bits they dont like such as a devil.....but thats assuming karma and past-life is purely christian belief....which it isnt. Its more of an eastern philosophy, or esoteric perhaps, and definitely has its downsides which im sure everyone who believes it agrees you cant ignore :)
 
I was looking over the thread to find these sentences :hug: and realised how long it was.. seems like my first post was a year ago.. :rotfl:

Im purposefully ignoring the evolution stuff
Ok fair enough, I just felt compelled to respond to your examples on evolution :D

Ive never said I just like the idea of karma or past-lives, I believe it, but not in anyway shape or form have I just left out bits I dont like
I suppose Im referring to these comments :)

GG
I like the idea of a god shaped vacuum
I really like the idea that Freya has too,

and

Lauramumof2
I too would like to think thats what will happen


:cheer:
:hug: - GG's
:hug: - Squig
:hug: - Lou
:hug: Freya
:hug: HappyAlice
:hug: - Kazlin
:hug: - Claire
:hug: - Teen
:hug: - Anyone I've left out
 
It seems your suggesting (correct me if Im wrong) that karma and past-life is something people just take from christianity

Ps. Forgot to say that I didn't mean it was taken from Christanity.. just in general.
 
ah ok that makes sense now :)

I see what you mean about saying "like the idea of", I suppose I use that term when referring to something I agree with to an extent but havnt totally made my mind up on yet, or want to give more thought to before commiting to either way, not something I just like the sound of :)

But yes...I have known people also who think that religion is pic n mix and only want to beleive the good bits, I think we have to realise that there is as much balance in spirituality as there is in the physical.

Now thats a whole other subject lol
 
I'm not giving hugs to GGG or Kazlin... they in my bad books... :shakehead: :shakehead: cos now I have SPIDER PIG going round my head again :rotfl:

On the subject of reincarnation and Karma... It also appears that Reincarnation is at conflict with Christianity. For one you can find that Christians themselves seem to disagree with the concept of reincarnation and karma....

For one reincarnation would deny the plausibility of eternal paradise in heaven, because you would be expected to be born again into another life and continue on that. Karma would deny the plausibility of Jesus/God determining your sins upon death, because you would have been expected to be punished/rewarded for your actions on earth. In which case, it wouldn't matter if you accepted Jesus as your saviour, because karma would just sort all that stuff out for you...

But then the bible agrees with reincarnation is several areas...

For all the prophets and the law have prophesied until John. And if you are willing to receive it, he is Elijah who was to come. (Matt. 11:13-14)

In the above passage, Jesus clearly identifies John the Baptist as the reincarnation of Elijah the prophet. Later in Matthew's gospel Jesus reiterates it.

And the disciples asked him, saying, "Why then do the scribes say that Elijah must come first?"

But he answered them and said, "Elijah indeed is to come and will restore all things. But I say to you that Elijah has come already, and they did not know him, but did to him whatever they wished. So also shall the Son of Man suffer at their hand."
Then the disciples understood that he had spoken of John the Baptist." (Matt. 17:10-13)

In very explicit language, Jesus identified John the Baptist as the reincarnation of Elijah. Even the disciples of Jesus understood what Jesus was saying. This identification of John to be the reincarnation of Elijah is very important when it comes to Bible prophecy. By identifying the John with Elijah, Jesus identified himself as the Messiah. The Hebrew scriptures mentions specific signs that would precede the coming of the Messiah. One of them is that Elijah will return first.

Behold I will send you Elijah the prophet, before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord. (Mal. 4:5)

This is one of the major Messianic promises from God that is found in the Bible. And these John is Elijah references clearly demonstrate the reality of reincarnation.

Its the two fold rule of the bible.. in one interpretation you have one theory and in the other you have another theory...

As for the theory concerning creation vs evolution...

"Creationists point to experiments they have performed, which they claim demonstrate that 1.5 billion years of nuclear decay took place over a short period of time, from which they infer that "billion-fold speed-ups of nuclear decay" have occurred, a massive violation of the principle that radioisotope decay rates are constant, a core principle underlying nuclear physics generally, and radiometric dating in particular.

The scientific community points to numerous flaws in these experiments, to the fact that their results have not been accepted for publication by any peer-reviewed scientific journal, and to the fact that the creationist scientists conducting them were untrained in experimental geochronology.

Although scientists have demonstrated that the decay rates of isotopes which decay by an electron capture mechanism can be varied slightly, these variations are of the order of 0.2 percent, far below a level that would give support to the Creationist results, and at a level that it is argued that they would not invalidate radiometric dating, nor is there any evidence of a variation in decay rates or physical constants over time. The consensus of professional scientific organisations worldwide is that no scientific evidence contradicts the age of approximately 4.5 billion years. It is further argued that "it is unlikely that a variable rate would affect all the different mechanisms in the same way and to the same extent. Yet different radiometric dating techniques give consistent dates."

Also the very nature of the debate is an art form. It is about the winning of arguments. It is not about the discovery of truth. There are certain rules and procedures to debate that really have nothing to do with establishing fact — which creationists have mastered. Some of those rules are: never say anything positive about your own position because it can be attacked, but chip away at what appear to be the weaknesses in your opponent's position. It is impossible to deny the creationist theory because, there is no science involved in it... no proof... other than a single document, that has been translated, interpreted, re interpreted, re translated, over and over and over again, for... and if creationists are right, over 6000 years. That's a lot of time for spelling mistakes and misinterpretations to happen. The bible on the mantle piece is not what Moses wrote...and that text has long since perished so there is no "proof" that Moses wrote what he did concerning creation and creationists can poke holes in another theory rather and preform experiments to back up their theories.

Also... If T Rex's were vegetarians in the Garden of Eden, why did they need the teeth? :think: Evolutionists say the explanation of the teeth for the T Rex as well as Cat's for example, was because they were carnivores and had to therefore evolve teeth to make tearing at flesh easier :think: ... I mean I know that the Christian God, must be a joker (take the platypus for example :rotfl: ) but whats the point of giving an animal sharp teeth like those of the T Rex and Cats, if his original intention was for them to eat leaves? :think:
 

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