MMR

[Gnomentum]

1: You admitted your "supermeasles" argument was guesswork. Yet somehow my fact-based arguments are irrelevant? I know there are many reasons why some people may think vaccinating against measles is dangerous and wrong, so why not quote these reasons instead of making up your own?

Your fact based arguments are irrelevant because you failed to place them in a meaningful context. If you go back in time far enough, then the black death was probably one of the main causes of infant mortality - yet nobody is suggesting we immunise against that! And saying something is 'fact based' is dangerous. The Shakespeare histories are 'fact based', that doesn't make them anything other than fiction - though plenty base their knowledge of Richard the Third on inaccurate, biased propoganda that was indeed 'fact based' yet somehow not very close to the truth.

I would also contest the suggestion that the supermeasles theory is guesswork. I never used that word, so please don't imply I did. I don't have scientific evidence for it, no, but to my mind, looking at recent issues that have come to light regarding medical interference causing more problems long term than they cure, it seems a logical assumption that it could well prove to be the case. With that in mind I am not happy to entrust my as yet unborn child blindly to a medical profession that has been proven to research insufficiently time and time again.

2: I quoted information from before vaccines were available because every single one of your posts on the subect has referenced the "it didn't do us any harm years ago when the vaccines weren't available" point. If it's not relevant then maybe you should stop talking about it.

There is a HUGE difference between referencing something from well under 30 years ago, when standards of hygeine were reasonably good and most people had a grasp of human biology comparable to that of today, and referencing statistics from potentially 100 or more years ago, when health and hygeine standards were far, far lower than they are now. 'The Past' is NOT some huge homogeonous lump - if the statistics refer to some specific DATE 'before vaccines were available' then I would welcome being told what that date was. In that way, I could draw a useful conclusion from them. Statistics, without a context to apply them to, are meaningless - and the implication I drew from yours was that they bore no relevance to a discussion about modern medecine.

Look, I'm just saying my reason's for deciding to immunise, and I've done it without attempting to insult you. I don't need to keep repeating myself on this, I'm not going to change my mind, neither are you.

Actually, that's where you have me wrong yet again. If I was unwilling to have my mind changed I wouldn't even be discussing this on a public forum. You'll notice my earlier posts all asked what reasons people had for being so 'pro' the MMR vaccine - nobody yet has managed to provide an inetlligent argument which stands up to scrutiny.

I don't play games. If I ask a question it's because I actually want to know the answer, NOT because I want to push people's buttons. The only conclusion I have so far been able to draw is that people who have replied negatively to my posts either

a) don't know why they think MMR is essential, or more likely
b) have been so blinded by misleading statistics and scare tactics that they are too frightened to accept there may be other ways to look at the problem.

I'm STILL waiting for any website, document, forum post, or member of the medical profession to give me an argument that stands up to intelligent examination and answers all my questions with regard to MMR. I'd hoped that people on here had valid information I hadn't seen, but it seems not to be the case.

If you can find a date for those stats though Urchin, I'd be interested to see them as if they are more recent than they appear to me, they may cast a slightly different light on things.

Also - Sami, as far as I have been able to work out in a quick search around after getting in from a late and exhausting shift at work, it's Rubella which puts unborn foetuses at risk and not Mumps or Measles. I may be wrong, I'll look again tomorrow. But in any case, all girls in the UK are revaccinated against Rubella before or during early puberty.. if this isn't effective against Rubella when they later become pregnant what makes you think the Rubella portion of the MMR will be any more useful?

 

[Urchin]

Taken from the NHS website:

Measles is a highly infectious disease that mainly affects young children, but can be caught at any age. Measles is now less common in the UK as many people have been vaccinated. Measles can be very serious, so it is important that children are vaccinated. Measles vaccination is part of the MMR jab.

If you catch measles during pregnancy and you’re not immune, this may result in a miscarriage, stillbirth or pre-term (early) delivery.

The measles virus is very easily spread in droplets from coughs and sneezes in the air. It can also be caught from contact with the skin of an infected person. You may not show symptoms until 6-21 days after being exposed to measles, but most peopl show symptoms after about 10 days (this is called the incubation period). Early symptoms of measles are like a cold with a fever, cough, red eyes and tiny spots (Koplik's spots) in the mouth. A red-brown spotty rash appears 3-4 days later and lasts for up to 7 days.

If you’re pregnant and you think you’ve come into contact with someone with measles, and you know you’re not immune, you should see your GP immediately. Your GP may treat you with human normal immunoglobulin (HNIG) – this may reduce the severity of your measles, but there is no evidence that it prevents miscarriage, stillbirth or pre-term delivery (1).

If you’re planning on getting pregnant and you’re not sure if you’ve had measles or the measles vaccination, your GP may suggest you have the MMR jab to make sure you’re immune. You cannot have the jab while pregnant because the vaccination contains a live virus, which could cause infection in the baby. For the same reason, you should not become pregnant for at least a month after having the MMR jab.

This makes up part of my "intelligent argument" I have referenced this point in most of my posts. I'll say it again anyway: If I didn't immunise my child there is a chance he could cause a pregnant woman to have a stillbirth etc. I am not willing to take that chance. Maybe you are willing to take the chance. That's your choice.

The only point you seem to have put forward so far is that people who vaccinate are "blinded" by their GP, or don't know why they do it. I haven't seen any points from you that would give me reasons not to vaccinate, yet you want us to post you detailed reasons why we do it.
The only thing you've said as far as WHY we are all misguided is "I could show you evidence but you can go and find it for yourself"
What kind of argument is that? We could all say that, but that wouldn't make for a very interesting debate would it?

On top of all of this, your replies so far have been quite rude, as if you are just trying to insult me and others who vaccinate, yet you are asking for a "reasonable and sensible discussion" You tell me my arguments are irrelevant, yet you brought Mad cow disease into the discussion (?) if that's relevant then why aren't my points about past death rates before the vaccine was brought in?

 

[Urchin]

Oh sorry I forgot you wanted recent statistics

Measles

Before measles immunizations were available, nearly everyone in the U.S. got measles. An average of 450measles-associated deaths were reported each year between 1953 and 1963.
In the U.S., up to 20 percent of persons with measles are hospitalized. Seventeen percent of measles cases have had one or more complications, such as ear infections, pneumonia, or diarrhea. Pneumonia is present in about six percent of cases and accounts for most of the measles deaths. Although less common, some persons with measles develop encephalitis (swelling of the lining of the brain), resulting in brain damage.

It is estimated that as many as one of every 1,000 persons with measles will die in the U.S. In the developing world, the rate is much higher, with death occurring in about one of every 100 persons with measles.

Measles is one of the most infectious diseases in the world and is frequently imported into the U.S. In 1997-2000, most cases were associated with international visitors or U.S. residents who were exposed to the measles virus while traveling abroad. More than 90 percent of people who are not immune will get measles if they are exposed to the virus.

According to the World Health Organization (WHO), nearly 900,000 measles-related deaths occurred among persons in developing countries in 1999. In populations that are not immune to measles, measles spreads rapidly. If vaccinations were stopped, each year, 2.7 million measles deaths worldwide could be expected.

In the U.S., widespread use of measles vaccine has led to a greater than 99 percent reduction in measles compared with the pre-vaccine era. If we stopped immunization, measles would increase to pre-vaccine levels.

Taken from here

 

[Sarah&Braydon]

oh gosh lol all this from B going into hospital to have his lol

 

[Strangeness]

My mum's aunt got measles when she was pregnant with her son. He was born deaf and dumb as a result. That is enough evidence for me to vaccinate my son. If him having the jab stops him causing harm to himself and unborn children then so be it. As someone else said the benefits outweigh the risks.

My mum refused to vaccinate my sister against whooping cough when there was a big scare about it. My sister was seriously poorly from getting it and my mum was deverstated. Safe to say she had all the rest of us vaccinated!

 

[Dee1985]

did any one watch the show on bbc 1 about the jabs tonight?
it was real sad

 

[mary70]

all i know is that a friend of my mums daughter is blind due to catching measles as a child, but i must admit hannah has had her appointment for the mmr and i havent taken her yet because i need more time to think about it and find out more info

 

[Dee1985]

i have not read up on it, and dont want to. i will put my childrens lives in the hands of the medical experts they say children should have it then i trust them.

 

[Sarah&Braydon]

i have not read up on it, and dont want to. i will put my childrens lives in the hands of the medical experts they say children should have it then i trust them.

exactly wot i think hun
wot was the programme bout???

 

[beanie]

I saw it Dionne and to be honest its made me more mixed up then before. Its really starting to stress me out, my heart says no but my head says yes

 

[Dee1985]

I saw it Dionne and to be honest its made me more mixed up then before. Its really starting to stress me out, my heart says no but my head says yes

it all really confusses me. what jabs is it every one is on about? the mmr? or the first 3 sets of jabs they have? or the new one that has just come out for ear infection ect?

i seen the part on that programme where the lil boy died in his mums arms. iv recorded it going to watch it soon. what did he die from?

 

[beanie]

meningitis, but there was also a mother on there who's son was disabled due to the mmr.

 

[Dee1985]

which jab is the meningitis?

the new one thats just come out? Harley had it today

 

[beanie]

yeah its the new one

 

[Dee1985]

ok sorry for being anoying... but that boy that died in his mums arms had he had the jab and died through that? or never had the jab and caught it?
srry but i only seen a bit of it and im getting a picture of it because if he died after having the jab il delete it and wont watch it as il get all upset seems Harley had his today

 

[littlebump]

I watched that programme last night - it made me bawl my eyes out (see my post in 1st tri )

This post couldn't have come at a better time for me as I was going to post something myself. Maddie will be due for her MMR soon enough and I have a big decision to make, and really feel a bit at a loss - there is so much conflicting information out there, and all the 'anti' MMR information I've read seems to suggest that you can't rely on your GP for an unbiased answer because it's such a strong part of their belief system that immunizations work. I know there are risks with MMR and I know there are risks with the diseases. Different places suggest risks are weighted totally differently depending on their bias .

Urchin - I was so interested to know you Mason had his injections done separately - that's one of the options we have been considering though one doctor discussing this on LBC about a month ago suggested that the separate injections are less effective as they don't immunize against all strains - do you know much about this - is it a real risk - as I said before this doctor was pro MMR so was naturally biased against the separate injections. Are there any websites you can point me to that will help me understand more about the separate injections - I'd be very grateful.

This is such an emotive area so I can see why people are passionate about it. But it is a totally individual and personal decision to make - we all will do what we believe to be in the best interest of our own babies (without necessarily considering what's in the best interests of society as a whole) - perhaps that's where the conflict with the medical profession comes in - they are interested in the whole of society and of course it would be better if it all disease were erradicated - even if it means that in the short term (i.e. during the immunization process) it meant some unfortunate side effects. I haven't read that anywhere - just thinking aloud really (sorry - not trying to be controversial - please don't shout at me ).

Yours 'totally in the dark'

LBxxxxxx

 

[littlebump]

Dionne

He apparently caught meningitus, then was better and went home - he was fine for a month but then got an infection (I assume related as he went all blotchy again like he had blood poisoning) - and there was nothing the doctors could do.

He hadn't been vaccinated yet against this particular strain of meningitus though I don't know which strain it was he caught.

LBxx

 

[Dee1985]

well the kids are both in bed now for a nap so imv just put it on....

its a real shame and breaks my heart.

 

[Urchin]

Urchin - I was so interested to know you Mason had his injections done separately - that's one of the options we have been considering though one doctor discussing this on LBC about a month ago suggested that the separate injections are less effective as they don't immunize against all strains - do you know much about this - is it a real risk - as I said before this doctor was pro MMR so was naturally biased against the separate injections. Are there any websites you can point me to that will help me understand more about the separate injections - I'd be very grateful.

Hiya sorry I only just saw this.


www.jabs.org.uk has loads of info, it's quite balanced about most vaccines except MMR. It's important to try and stay balanced and make the right decision for you and your family.

 

[beanie]

I watched that programme last night - it made me bawl my eyes out (see my post in 1st tri )

This post couldn't have come at a better time for me as I was going to post something myself. Maddie will be due for her MMR soon enough and I have a big decision to make, and really feel a bit at a loss - there is so much conflicting information out there, and all the 'anti' MMR information I've read seems to suggest that you can't rely on your GP for an unbiased answer because it's such a strong part of their belief system that immunizations work. I know there are risks with MMR and I know there are risks with the diseases. Different places suggest risks are weighted totally differently depending on their bias .

Urchin - I was so interested to know you Mason had his injections done separately - that's one of the options we have been considering though one doctor discussing this on LBC about a month ago suggested that the separate injections are less effective as they don't immunize against all strains - do you know much about this - is it a real risk - as I said before this doctor was pro MMR so was naturally biased against the separate injections. Are there any websites you can point me to that will help me understand more about the separate injections - I'd be very grateful.

This is such an emotive area so I can see why people are passionate about it. But it is a totally individual and personal decision to make - we all will do what we believe to be in the best interest of our own babies (without necessarily considering what's in the best interests of society as a whole) - perhaps that's where the conflict with the medical profession comes in - they are interested in the whole of society and of course it would be better if it all disease were erradicated - even if it means that in the short term (i.e. during the immunization process) it meant some unfortunate side effects. I haven't read that anywhere - just thinking aloud really (sorry - not trying to be controversial - please don't shout at me ).

Yours 'totally in the dark'

LBxxxxxx

this is how I am feeling. For ages I have been pro mmr and vaccine but now after reading around I just don't know and feel as though I haven't got enough time to read all the info.