Lifting the Veil #2

[Urchin]

Has anyone asked the kids in question how they feel about it?

 

[Amanda]

I personally would feel uncomfortable talking to someone wearing a veil, and I'm 36! Whether children would though is another matter. they do accept things easier than us adults.

Having said that though, I do not think that teachers should wear them, primarily from a teaching/learning aspect.

My hubbie had a hard enough time at school as he had undiagnosed dyslexia. It didnt get diagnosed until he went to agricultural college at the age of 17. He is also partially deaf, and relies on lip-reading loads. You would never notice this just by talking to him - in fact we had been together for over a year before I even found out! But if he had been taught by someone wearing a veil, how would he have learnt anything?

 

[Ebony_Mommy]

my sister is 4 and she knows what it is...

if ur child knows nothing about other ppl culture in this day and age..

thats sad

 

[budge]

my sister is 4 and she knows what it is...

if ur child knows nothing about other ppl culture in this day and age..

thats sad

to whom are you refering ebony?

 

[gingerpig]

I always wonder how the women themselves feel about wearing the veil - like for them is it the psychological equivalent of having our boobies covered up, and are we making people feel uncomfortable and exposed by asking them to remove clothing? Standards of modesty do vary, and it's not that long since showiong your ankles was regarded as daring by the Victorians... They even covered table legs which seems extreme to me lol. I had a look on the net and there's Muslim feminist opinion on either sides of the wearing the veil debate - I know this is slightly outside of the topic of this discussion, but being a wooly hatted liberal my main concern is how other women feel about what's happening to themselves.

 

[Misslarue]

I always wonder how the women themselves feel about wearing the veil - like for them is it the psychological equivalent of having our boobies covered up, and are we making people feel uncomfortable and exposed by asking them to remove clothing? Standards of modesty do vary, and it's not that long since showiong your ankles was regarded as daring by the Victorians... They even covered table legs which seems extreme to me lol. I had a look on the net and there's Muslim feminist opinion on either sides of the wearing the veil debate - I know this is slightly outside of the topic of this discussion, but being a wooly hatted liberal my main concern is how other women feel about what's happening to themselves.

I've read quite a few books about life in Muslim countries and how it effects women.......I guess its hard to say as I suppose these could also be taken as a bias view. But The Princess Trilogy's (Jean Sasson) and a few books I've read about women in Afghanistan when the taliban 'took' over have not put the full burqa in a positive light.

 

[gingerpig]

I agree with you on the Taliban - the treatment of professional (and indeed all) women was a humanitarian disaster. I've not read any of Jean Sasson's stuff, although looking on Amazon it looks like it's mainly historical fiction in content? Which is fine as it's useful to get the facts behind current situation, but would you consider it a reliable source of info about the veil today? I really have no idea either way lol - as I haven't read her, I'm genuinely interested in what you might say. A friend of mine from uni (white girl) converted to Islam and found wearing the veil empowering as it meant she was no longer an object of male attraction, and I heard similar when I was travelling in Egypt. Not from the women though.... As I said before I found lots of arguements on both sides on the web, and then again there's this from the Beeb: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/talking_point/3093688.stm Whilest the author of the piece obviously wants to wear the head veil, there's plenty of Muslims who seem to disagree with her. So I guess there is no overall opinion on it which I guess is what I would have expected. Therefore it's more interesting to me to get a feeling for what the individual women think - it's obviously possible to wear the veil in a empowered or a subjected way.

 

[Misslarue]

The Princess Trilogy's are a true account of the day to day life of a real Saudi princess. To be honest the first 2 books are pretty horrifying, as a non religious western women it is a bit of an eye opener. Its hard to say weather these books are completely unbiased but it is stressed throughout the book that the princess in question puts her life in danger by telling her story. In the books though, her and the Muslim women she frequently spends time with do not object to the hijab, in fact they embrace their religion whole heartedly, but most of them don't like wearing the full burqa and the final book is how they are fighting to make changes for Muslim women (i.e. women driving/no multiple marriages etc). The book are pretty good and I would definitely recommend them if that is your type of thing (which I love to read about!) It is hard to say if it is a reliable source of info , because being honest the books paint the Muslim faith in a terrible light and I'm sure there are many Muslim women around the world that would disagree with that.

 

[gingerpig]

They do sound like interesting books, and it such a big thing for me as a Western woman to think about the sorts of struggles these women are having to go through for basic human rights. I may well look them up, thanks for the recommendation! The stuff that went on in the Taliban era, women ending up in mental hospitals and much worse becuase of the treatment they received was horrific to read about. To me, there is a difference between religious faith and social practice - religion being one thing and it's interpretation being another. I think it's often social conditions that can lead to extremism - not that I'm trying to excuse corrupt behaviour here! The only reasonably similar example I can think of from my own experience is that of Jewish women - the very orthodox ones tend to be family centred, often covering their hair in front of men, etc. But to me the interesting thing is that in Judaism it is the family that is the most important thing, with the Sabbath meal service right at the ehart of that, and being the only service conducted by women. Of course the men go to synagogue, but it's the Sabbath meal that is the real heart of Jewish practice. Also, Jewish lineage is passed hrough the women - not the men. Mainly because you can usually see who the mum is, but the father is harder to prove lol. Then again, many orthodox women feel oppressed, and cheated out of life outside the home. I can see examples of both in my father's family - I'm not Jewish btw as my mum isn't lol.
It's fascinating stuff to consider, and I think for me the fact that the veil, like many religious symbols (and I say this as a religious person) has such ambiguity, means I'm really uncomfortable with it being in the political realm in the manner it currently is. I think it's good to discuss it, and I think if we could discuss it in a way that was more sympathetic to the women themselves, for me that would be a more satisfying discussion.

So what else do you like to read about?

 

[Misslarue]

To me, there is a difference between religious faith and social practice - religion being one thing and it's interpretation being another.

Couldn't agree more. This point is mentioned constantly throughout all 3 books.
Seems like Blair has now jumped on the bandwagon:
http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,, ... 79,00.html

I like loads of books, but particularly true life struggle stories. I don't know why.......my OH is always saying why do you read those sad, depressing books! What about you?

 

[lauramumof2]

my sister is 4 and she knows what it is...

if ur child knows nothing about other ppl culture in this day and age..

thats sad

where I come from there is hardly any ethnic groups. Seriously!

 

[Dee1985]

my sister is 4 and she knows what it is...

if ur child knows nothing about other ppl culture in this day and age..

thats sad

my brother is 5 and he wouldnt have a clue.
he cant even write and has only just got his first reading book at school never mind no about all different religions

 

[lotus]

I work with people with severe communication problems and one of the specialist approaches we use involves reading and responding to facial expression, aswell as us imitating it and enhancing it in response. To wear the veil would definately be a barrier to learning in this session. Many of our students have severe autism and wouldnt actually understand their is a person behind there, they dont believe what they cant see.
One of our other staff who uses this approach is a motorbiker, he has to take his helmet off when he goes into shops, banks, pay for petrol etc, whats the difference? I'm sorry, but I have nothing wrong with people choosing to wear veil to walk down the street or in their own homes, but to not take it off when paying for things, going in abank etc is downright rude. I might choose to keep my headphones on next time I communicate to a woman in veil, can look at my face if they want to get to know me.
I am sorry if I have offended anyone, but this is my personal view point. It may be a cultural difference, but like previous posters, I have to accept certain diferrences in culture if I travel abroad, this should be reciprocated.
I live in Dewsbury, the town where the teaching assistant was sacked. There is a lot of racial tension here and something needs doing about it. It is about accepting each others cultures though, not simply a matter of us accepting theirs.

 

[Jayceesmumma]

I voted yes aswell, I have nothing against other cultures aslong as they agree to respect us as a Christian country. I'm not even Christian but I respect the law of the land. And yes, it would be pretty odd for a child. They need to see facial expressions to understand, that's how the learn when they are babies because they don't understand speech and that stays with us throughout life.

Totally agree

 

[budge]

my sister is 4 and she knows what it is...

if ur child knows nothing about other ppl culture in this day and age..

thats sad

my brother is 5 and he wouldnt have a clue.
he cant even write and has only just got his first reading book at school never mind no about all different religions

Why should we all teach our children about other cultures and way of dress.????????
.

which ''day in age'' are you on about ebony ???

 

[lauramumof2]

I would be really offended if someone wore one in front of my husband merely because he is male.

 

[budge]

yeah its like as if to say ''you're male and cannot control your sexual feelings ''.

 

[lauramumof2]

Yeah, exactly. Whats to stop a woman looking at men.


thats made me think of Marvin Gaye.

'When I get that feeling, i want sexual healing'

 

[Urchin]

Sorry guys but please can we keep to the topic......

''would you object to your young son or daughter being taught by someone who was dressed like this?''

this topic is not intended to create a dispute. Im just interested in the votes. No need to make a coment if you don't want

It is creating a dispute, and we all know where that ends up

 

[budge]

we were only sharing a view urchin. sorry.