2 failed IVF cycles, what now?

[Blueflower]

Last time our embryos weren't the best quality so this time we got different drugs and got much better quality embryos, 1 was a grade 1. But both times all the spares deteriorated, last time before transfer and this time the day after. Both times the blastocysts seemed to fail to attach although this time I really thought they might have done for a bit but were gone by testing day. I don't know if its just the 65% chance that they won't make it, or is there something going on? We might have had hundreds of embryos in the last 3 years that just never made it.

Our consultant mentioned tests before a 3rd round, does anyone know what they might be? On other forums I've seen chromosome blood tests mentioned for both of us and a NKC biopsy for me, in case my immune system is getting rid of the embryos. Sounds so horrible! We have'unexplained' but there must be some reason!

We'll find out soon but I wondered if anyone had any info?

 

[Tinkerbell3]

We've done a few further tests as we're unexplained too and they've all still come back fine so sometimes I think the reason just can't be found

DH has had karyotype blood test which is to test for chromosome issues, I plan to have it before next fresh cycle if we need it, I've also had NK cells blood test which at a whopping £600 for a blood test is expensive but I felt like we needed to rule it and there's also test for clotting issues but I've not had that and I don't feel at the moment I will

Sorry to hear yu had another failed cycle, I know how hard they are x

 

[Poppy1976]

Hi Blueflower, this is my first post with this username. I used to be on here a while ago but can't find my login details so had to set up a new account!

I had 2 failed ivf attempts and I was sure it was implantation failure and we were lucky enough to be at The Bridge Centre in London under the care of Mr Summers. He has links to a clinic in the US who use a test called "e-tegrity". You can read about it on a website called "etegritytest". Mr Summers is adamant that there is no evidence to suggest that NK cells cells cause infertility but did suggest the Karyotype testing that Tinkerbell suggested.

I am posting this because I feel e-tegrity testing should be offered to everyone before they waste money and go through the heartache of rounds of ivf that are destined to fail but sadly it is a very new and US based test (they seem to be years ahead of the UK.

You are right to be questioning "why" it didn't work twice and Tinkerbell is right that sometimes the reason hasn't been discovered yet but e-tegrity testing revealed my issue and I now have a baby and am expecting a second one - naturally. I think my body was slightly out of sync and pregnancy sorted it out. With conception, everything has to be absolutely perfect and the treatment to get me pregnant the first time, obviously sorted the problem out for me as I was very unexpectedly pregnant again naturally by the time our ivf baby was 8 months old.

Feel free to ask me any questions - I know so much about implantation failure, I'm seriously considering setting up a charity to fund e-tegrity testing and raise awareness about the fact that ivf doesn't fix implantation problems. If we hadn't have stumbled upon Mr Summers, I truly believe we would still be suffering failed ivf attempts.

Good luck and stay strong - what you are going through is so hard.

P x

 

[Blueflower]

Thanks so much both. E-tegrity sound intriguing, what exactly is it?

 

[Poppy1976]

Hi Blueflower,

All the info about etegrity is on the website - I wasn't allowed to post the link because I am a new poster...

Basically, the uterine lining has to have certain properties including a "sticky" protein to help implantation at 7-10 dpo.

The etegrity test involves a biopsy which looks at the properties of your lining compared to certain markers that they would expect to see at that time. One of these markers is the sticky protein. If it isn't there, implantation is difficult.

Progesterone helps the lining mature in order that it is ready to receive an embryo but sometimes, for some reason, progesterone is inhibited (even if blood tests are perfectly fine as they were in my case).

My results showed that although I was 7dpo at the time of the biopsy, my lining looked more like it was 2dpo (even though it was nice and thick on scans etc). At a microscopic level there was a problem which the etegrity test picked up. They call this an "out of phase lining".

So I had load of progesterone the next month, had another biopsy and I was still out of phase. It took 4 biopsy and a huge amount of progesterone to get my lining in phase. But 4 attempts later the protein was there! The next step was ivf with the same additional progesterone injections. We had a frozen cycle and got a bfn and the a fresh cycle got us our BFP.

Then, as I said, I'm pregnant naturally - I think when I finally got pregnant my body sorted itself out and got the lining back in sync again.

I only had one failed round of ivf before I found out about the etegrity tests but like you, I just had this feeling that we were making lots of embryos with ivf and naturally that weren't attaching and bog standard ivf doesn't help implantation. So if that is the problem, ivf won't work.

I had unexplained infertility and the etegrity testing provided us with a reason and therefore we were able to treat it.

Feel free to ask me anything you want to

 

[Blueflower]

Thank you I'll check the website. I've heard of a biopsy to check for NK cells but the lining issue makes sense. Did you have to get it done in the US? I had progesterone pessaries which are supposed to support the luteal phase but maybe it wasn't enough.

 

[Poppy1976]

No the sample was sent to the US...

And I had pessaries 3 times a day plus intermuscular injections - like LOADS of extra progesterone. The standard pessaries with ivf to support the luteal phase are instead of that which is usually released during a natural cycle (with ivf all the hormones you'd usually produce have to be given to you artificially because they've shut you're natural system down so they can control it). If you are out of phase you need extra progesterone...

 

[tinselcat]

Hi blueflower

Sorry to hear it didn't work out the second time.

I don't know about the tests, but as someone who had two failed IVF cycles with poor quality embryos and then got lucky on the third try (we only ever had one top-grade embryo out of 20 eggs collected from the 3 cycles & never went to blasto stage) I just wanted to say keep going, I really think there's a good deal of chance involved. We stuck with the same medicine (gonal-F and cetrotide, then progesterone) and didn't have any analysis done.

I do know a couple in real life who took 5 goes on IVF, but I think the tests showed her body was rejecting the embryos so had to be given some medicine to keep that in check.

Wishing you all the best xx

 

[Blueflower]

Hi blueflower

Sorry to hear it didn't work out the second time.

I don't know about the tests, but as someone who had two failed IVF cycles with poor quality embryos and then got lucky on the third try (we only ever had one top-grade embryo out of 20 eggs collected from the 3 cycles & never went to blasto stage) I just wanted to say keep going, I really think there's a good deal of chance involved. We stuck with the same medicine (gonal-F and cetrotide, then progesterone) and didn't have any analysis done.

I do know a couple in real life who took 5 goes on IVF, but I think the tests showed her body was rejecting the embryos so had to be given some medicine to keep that in check.

Wishing you all the best xx

Thank you. Do you know what medicine she had?

 

[tinselcat]

I'm afraid I don't (and I don't know her well enough to enquire).

They have a healthy baby now though.

 

[Blueflower]

Hopefully the clinic will have some solutions for us.

 

[Blueflower]

We've decided to go for the 3 blood tests for me and possibly the scratch. DH wasn't keen to get the chromosome test for both of us as its only an issue for 2% of people apparently and you can't do anything about it if there is an issue. Its only £190 each though & it might be better to try everything! Does anyone know what it involves apart from a blood test, e.g. are they looking for abnormal chromosomes in our blood? I forgot what the consultant said and as usual we only have a price list from our clinic, no actual details!

 

[scn]

We've decided to go for the 3 blood tests for me and possibly the scratch. DH wasn't keen to get the chromosome test for both of us as its only an issue for 2% of people apparently and you can't do anything about it if there is an issue. Its only £190 each though & it might be better to try everything! Does anyone know what it involves apart from a blood test, e.g. are they looking for abnormal chromosomes in our blood? I forgot what the consultant said and as usual we only have a price list from our clinic, no actual details!

The chromosome test is purely a blood sample from each of you and the lab are looking to see that you both have got a full set of normal chromosomes. Me and DH had it done after we lost our baby boy at just over 13 weeks due to a chromosome problem with him. If either of you have a chromosome problem, you can do IVF with PGS which is preimplantation genetic screening where they do chromosome checks on the embryo before they transfer it back to you.
Good luck x

 

[Blueflower]

Thank you for the info, maybe we should get the test before IVF just in case. But DH doesn't think its worth it if its so rare and our consultant said the screening isn't that conclusive. Did you find it helpful at all? X

 

[scn]

The test basically tells you whether you or your DH has a chromosome problem which may be passed on to your child. It was useful for us because we lost a child to a chromosome problem and it was important for us to know if it was 'one of those things' or if we carried a chromosome abnormality. Our results were normal but if it had shown one or both of us had a chromosome problem then we would have went down the IVF with PGS route.
The test is conclusive as far as it will tell you if any of you have a chromosome abnormality. The majority of early miscarriages are due to a chromosome abnormality in the embryo, but it doesn't always mean that the parents have one.

 

[Blueflower]

I've had the 3 blood tests now, I wish I'd known it was 15 vials of blood! Get the results in a week or so. Does anyone know what the Thrombotic risk test tells you in relation to implantation? I can't think how clotting would help an embryo implant.

 

[scn]

As far as I understand it, your blood may be clotting too much and stopping the embryo implanting by preventing it attaching to the uterus and establishing a blood supply.

 

[Blueflower]

Thank you. After I posted that I looked on Google instead of Bing and found a really good website that listed all the tests I've had, what they are for and what can be done if that's what the issue is. Made me feel a lot more positive!

 

[Blueflower]

We've done a few further tests as we're unexplained too and they've all still come back fine so sometimes I think the reason just can't be found

DH has had karyotype blood test which is to test for chromosome issues, I plan to have it before next fresh cycle if we need it, I've also had NK cells blood test which at a whopping £600 for a blood test is expensive but I felt like we needed to rule it and there's also test for clotting issues but I've not had that and I don't feel at the moment I will

Sorry to hear yu had another failed cycle, I know how hard they are x

How are things with you at the moment Tinkerbell3?