Nearly 10 months and still an awful sleeper

[Baby2sky]

I agree with bigbee, controlled crying is cruel imo.

I know the user goat has used gentle sleep training methods so hopefully she sees this and can offer some advice xxx

 

[TTT]

I think that saying controlled crying is cruel is an awful thing to say. Sometimes it's the only way and it's some people's choice, I did it for 1 night and it helped felix get himself back off to sleep for ages. Does that mean that mothers who use controlled crying techniques are cruel??

I'm sorry and I know this may upset some mums but cc is cruel. What happens, scientifically, is that the babies shut down and go into fight or flight response mode. That's the reason they stop crying, cc doesn't work.

http://www.naturalchild.org/guest/pinky_mckay.html

However I understand that some mums don't have much support from dads, their own parents etc and have pressures of work.

Unfortunately i think that many mums make misinformed decisions amd.i personally try to base my parenting decisions on scientific research to the best of my knowledge. I hope this helps some mums make a more informed.decision.

 

[littlemonkey]

I think that saying controlled crying is cruel is an awful thing to say. Sometimes it's the only way and it's some people's choice, I did it for 1 night and it helped felix get himself back off to sleep for ages. Does that mean that mothers who use controlled crying techniques are cruel??

I'm sorry and I know this may upset some mums but cc is cruel. What happens, scientifically, is that the babies shut down and go into fight or flight response mode. That's the reason they stop crying, cc doesn't work.

http://www.naturalchild.org/guest/pinky_mckay.html

However I understand that some mums don't have much support from dads, their own parents etc and have pressures of work.

Unfortunately i think that many mums make misinformed decisions amd.i personally try to base my parenting decisions on scientific research to the best of my knowledge. I hope this helps some mums make a more informed.decision.

As someone who regularly gets bashed for my educated and informed decision to wean my children at four months, I have to say that calling some one elses choices cruel is not on.

I don't agree particularly with controlled crying, but I am blessed with two good sleepers so have never been desperate enough to consider it. Every one's circumstances are different and it's not fair to judge others just because they make different choices to your own.

I know most mums without a decent rest in nine months are feeling pretty shit as it is, are desperate enough to consider cc and feeling pretty crap going through it all, without having someone else criticise them for doing so.

I'm getting off my soap box now!!!!

 

[TTT]

Sorry little monkey. I totally understand that we don't live in an ideal world and parenting is bloody tough, and I only have the one child. The only people I cant help judging are those who do cc from the word go just cos they think its best for them without making an informed.decision and putting their own needs first. I don't think a mother who is so tired she physically poorly and her other children are suffering from lack of sleep and a tired mother to the point that she feels she has no other option having tried every other trick is anyone to judge - there is a difference. But that's in context. Cc in a nutshell on its own is cruel in my personal opinion, that's not judging ots my opinion that I've based on scientific evidence.

 

[tinselcat]

If I had come across the "pick up put down" technique earlier (I saw a link on this forum a few weeks ago for that), I would have tried that as I think it sounded quite positive.

I also read a lot of books on sleep training, including several along the lines of "gently train baby to sleep with no crying" and basically had no success with them. To summarise some of the "tips" for Carnat that I remember, they included:

- give baby a dummy
- get baby off to sleep in a swing (whatever that is?!)
- get baby attached to a "lovey" (cuddly toy or something they can snuggle)
- to stop baby feeding after a long time feeding overnight, if baby starts rooting then hold their mouth closed (yes, really!! it said that!!)

I had read that leaving baby to cry causes increased cortisol and attachment issues, so I made a point of returning regularly & quickly and staying with baby quite a lot (when I probably should have "gone" again if I was following the technique properly) to help him learn that I will always come back and so he did not feel abandoned. I also gave lots of gentle physical contact and soothing voice noises to help.

When I asked for help from the GPs and health visitors, they all advocated cc but different durations - the first HV said to return "2 mins, then come back", the next HV said "5 mins, then 10 mins" (apparently he "trained" his 3 children in 4 days, 2 days & 1 day - he's a pediatric nurse too), and the GP expressed horror at the HV's 5-10 min idea and said "30 seconds!!!"

Obviously I only followed this path out of utter desperation & exhaustion & for my physical & emotional wellbeing, after 2 & half months of no sleep and with baby 8 or 9 months old.


However, my mother told me that my great-grandma instructed my grandma that with a newborn, in the evening you put them in a room and close the door & come back in the morning. So that's what she did with my mum. I find that absolutely heart-breaking.

 

[Goat]

I agree with bigbee, controlled crying is cruel imo.

I know the user goat has used gentle sleep training methods so hopefully she sees this and can offer some advice xxx

Thanks Hun! Yes I did pick up/put down with my youngest and found it really effective but it is quite intense. I mentioned what I did in this thread: http://www.pregnancyforum.co.uk/baby-toddler/479334-co-sleeping-will-forever.html

Even though my little one is currently going through an almighty sleep regression I still maintain this is the best thing I ever did. It does all depend on the baby and how they respond to it as I know another mum who's baby just wouldn't cooperate. However it worked for us and even though my daughter is night waking more this week, she will at least go back to her cot to sleep.

Good luck Hun, I can completely sympathise.xx

 

[Goat]

Tinselcat I've heard that too. What's scary is that my colleague in the US kept banging on about this revolutionary book that helped her enourmously in the early months called 'Moms on Call' and she sent me a copy. It was essentially a whole book advocating the advice of your great grandmother. You can kind of understand previous generations doing that because they didn't have access to any research but in this day and age I think it's so shocking and heartbreaking for it to be advocated so proudly for newborns. I'm not as strongly adverse to it for older babies as others are, but equally I am not offended by others viewpoints on it but there's no way I could ever be comfortable with letting tiny babies cry all night, makes me so sad.x

 

[El1en]

I think those you you calling cc cruel are being a bit harsh. No mum wants to listen to their baby cry and have tried everything else. If you don't agree with it surely you should just offer alternatives that might be helpful instead of being negative and so judgemental.

 

[Smileygirl]

The way we tackled sleep was to introduce a strict routine from very early on. Our baby napped at exactly the same times every single day and if he woke up early, instead of getting him up, we would resettle him. It took a little bit of time to establish but the result is a very happy baby who sleeps well and can self-soothe. By doing a strict routine from very early on, our baby didn't know any different and was very settled. As a result, we didn't need to go down the cc route as my understanding is controlled crying is to 'fix' sleep issues but if you don't have things to be fixed to start with, then you don't need to do controlled crying. I realise though that this advice doesn't really help the OP but maybe it will helps other mums and dads with newborns xx

 

[tinselcat]

What age were you doing this smileygirl? Also, out of interest, are you co sleeping and BF? I ask as I think when I ended feeds in bed it led to him waking many times a night wanting food on tap, as it had been before.

My baby had terrible colic for the first 14 weeks of his life as well as feeding issues so it would have been impossible then. He had a good sleeping/feeding routine between 4 & 5 months but things deteriorated overnight at 6 months and it had taken over 3 months to establish something ok again.

 

[El1en]

Tinselcat my little girl sounds a lot like your Lo. She awful colic which finally settled at 3 months which was great but after a month of only being up once a night her sleep went backwards massively. I'm going to have a read of the put down pick up method

 

[russellmuscle]

No words of wisdom! Just passing and super shocked, and a little scared to see how different Bee is a sleeper to James. Kinda scares me if/when i have baby number 2

xxxx

 

[Baby2sky]

I think those you you calling cc cruel are being a bit harsh. No mum wants to listen to their baby cry and have tried everything else. If you don't agree with it surely you should just offer alternatives that might be helpful instead of being negative and so judgemental.

There are lots of "no tears method" strategies that can be used. However, they usually take a lot of time to work, which is why some parents give up with them.

 

[russellmuscle]

I think that saying controlled crying is cruel is an awful thing to say. Sometimes it's the only way and it's some people's choice, I did it for 1 night and it helped felix get himself back off to sleep for ages. Does that mean that mothers who use controlled crying techniques are cruel??

I'm sorry and I know this may upset some mums but cc is cruel. What happens, scientifically, is that the babies shut down and go into fight or flight response mode. That's the reason they stop crying, cc doesn't work.

http://www.naturalchild.org/guest/pinky_mckay.html

However I understand that some mums don't have much support from dads, their own parents etc and have pressures of work.

Unfortunately i think that many mums make misinformed decisions amd.i personally try to base my parenting decisions on scientific research to the best of my knowledge. I hope this helps some mums make a more informed.decision.

As someone who regularly gets bashed for my educated and informed decision to wean my children at four months, I have to say that calling some one elses choices cruel is not on.

I don't agree particularly with controlled crying, but I am blessed with two good sleepers so have never been desperate enough to consider it. Every one's circumstances are different and it's not fair to judge others just because they make different choices to your own.

I know most mums without a decent rest in nine months are feeling pretty shit as it is, are desperate enough to consider cc and feeling pretty crap going through it all, without having someone else criticise them for doing so.

I'm getting off my soap box now!!!!

Exactly. I don't think it is really any one else's business to comment on others parenting skills and choices but that is just my opinion.

I have read the studies, CC has been found to not be good mentally for your child - however saying that I know is used not just by the odd mother.

There is a difference between not running to your child immediately and leaving them alone in a room to cry until they are physically exhausted and drop off.

It isnt nice for us as adults to cry ourself to sleep and we dont because we shouldnt need to!

Again, my boy slept from 7w so I have a fab sleeper, however I do not agree on bashing someones parenting choices, they are not yours move on?

xxxx

 

[Goat]

Eileen, I did CC with my eldest but I wouldn't let the negative opinions upset me or anyone else as that's all they are...opinions and everyones entitled to them, nice or harsh. There are plenty of blogs and a few studies which are totally against cc or cio which I have looked into a lot over the past couple of years and whilst I find them interesting, i just don't find them all that reliable due to the sample used in each study. Its predominantly based on studies using rodents and one study based it's study on neglected babies in an Eastern European orphanage who get no attention day or night and learn to shut down and not call for help. I found it hard to find a study using well cared for and loved babies who are left to cry for 20 odd minutes for a night or two and the overall effects it has on them long term. Also I found studies on the effect of cortisol on overtired babies - who's to say whats more damaging - babies who are constantly overtired and always producing the cortisol hormone or babies who are left to cry? I personally don't know so I've based my decisions on what is best for us and I've never regretted sleep training my eldest. Had I heard of the more gentler one I used on my youngest I would've tried it first but I didn't so never mind! If my eldest wakes at night and needs me she most certainly lets me know despite having been sleep trained and she's so far a confident and happy little thing.
Personally I think it's good to hear about all the studies and opinions out there especially when we're living in a society that defines a 'good baby' as a baby that sleeps. Just because a baby might not sleep, doesn't make it a 'bad baby' and many mums will feel pressure to get their babies sleeping through based on negative comments from the society around them.

 

[CARNAT22]

Lots of food for thought here ladies and I didn't mean to turn it into a debate about CC.

Sadly there are times I have to let Bee cry (if I am doing something with James I can't just stop - for example taking him to the loo) so I'm not anti letting baby cry. I am not sure CC will work for me though.

As for having a strict routine, it's really not possible with 2. If anything Bee fits in with our routine, even more so now James is starting nursery...

She generally naps at the same time of day - just not for very long!!

Have made our room a bit warmer and am trying to get her down at the same time every night so we'll give it a few days and see how things are.

Clare, my two are polar opposites... James was a very calm, chilled, easy going baby. Let's just say Bee is none of these things lol.

X

 

[Rooster30]

I hope Bea starts to sleep for you soon, lack of sleep is horrible. I too did CC with my eldest at a similar age, under HV guidance as I was suffering PND, partly due to his horrendous lack of sleep.

I do not begrudge anyones opinions on CC. It sure does feel cruel but I never left him for more than 10 minutes at a time and the reward was beneficial to us all. As Ellen said, no mother wants to hear their baby cry.

Fortunately, I haven't had to do CC with my daughter, but she has had to cry for 5-10 minutes sometimes. Babies crying is unavoidable - especially with other siblings arounds. I don't know how anyone can immediately tend to their child - especially in the middle of the night, it certainly takes me a few minutes to get myself alert and to trudge over to my daughter in semi-sleep mode

 

[TTT]

I'm not the only one who expressed an opinion against cc, nor was I the first, yet the ones saying we shouldn't criticise others seem to be singling me out but hey ho. I also said I was a realist and that my only criticism is to those who use cc to the extreme without making the effort to make an informed decision but hey ho.

I hope the op find it as reassuring as I do that her baby is not in the minority and in fact the majority.

 

[babyscotcher]

Are you able to try and introduce her slowly to settling by herself. If you have a bed guard avaliable you could start by putting her down semi sleepy in your bed where she is used to sleeping but then leaving her on her own to settle. Once she is used to settling in your bed where she feels secure but without you she may be a bit more willing to settle in her cot without you next to her.

No science type theory or anything just that my son first started settling himself at nap times when he was comfy laying on my bed while I was pottering about upstairs and very soon after started to self soothe in his own cot. Prior to that we had to feed and cuddle him to sleep.

Out of interest where does Bee go for her naps? Often easier to start with naps and then the night time is easier. My Lo is 6 months and still wakes once each night but is an angel now at settling to sleep in the first place. Good luck carnat. X

 

[Smileygirl]

What age were you doing this smileygirl? Also, out of interest, are you co sleeping and BF? I ask as I think when I ended feeds in bed it led to him waking many times a night wanting food on tap, as it had been before.

My baby had terrible colic for the first 14 weeks of his life as well as feeding issues so it would have been impossible then. He had a good sleeping/feeding routine between 4 & 5 months but things deteriorated overnight at 6 months and it had taken over 3 months to establish something ok again.

Sorry to hear about the colic, must have been really tough. We didn't have those issues so yeah, totally get how that would affect establishing a routine initially...

We were in a 3 hourly routine from day 1, 4-hourly routine from week 4 (I.e feed, activity, sleep, repeat, missing out activities during the night!) and then from 7 weeks, he was going to bed at 7pm, dream feed at 11pm and then awake at 5:30am and then by 12 weeks, going through until 7am.

Our sleep routine (every single day) was:
7am - wake up
9:15am - 100 - nap
12:30 - 3pm - nap
4:15 - 4:35pm - nap
7pm - bed

We would wake the baby at the end of each nap slot if required.

By 8 months, we'd dropped the 4:15 nap and reduced 9:30am nap to half an hour. By 11 months, morning nap was 15 minutes and dropped altogether by 18 months. Lunch time nap gradually reduced to 12:45 - 2:30pm.

I combi-fed but was mostly breastfeeding in the first 3 months. Baby always slept alone and in own cot (although we used one of those cots which connects to side of our bed in the first four months) and we didn't pick him up unless he was clearly distressed.

It really has worked so well for us and would recommend trying it to anyone who is struggling with sleep. But it really takes dedication to stick to those times every single day, so it's not for the spontaneous!!