Urchin said:

Urchin said:
nori said:beanie said:Australia is one the biggest hypocrites ever. They have some of the toughest immigration policies, yet fail to remember that they are a relatively new immigrant population livig in a country where the indiginous people are treated like second class citizens (the divide between the Australians and the Aboriginals in parts was awful). America are the same, complaining about immigration and forgetting the land they stole from the Native Americans.
I do agree with that but i still think we should have some sort of process in place to only allow poeple who can contribute to society and not simply take from society. Do you not agree with that or would you continue to allow immigrants who dont have anything to offer to stay here? When do we stop?
Urchin said:
Urchin said:
beanie said:[no, I feel we actually have a duty as human beings to look after vulnerable people. And we can comfortably afford to do this as we only take in a small number compared to other countries. And this only letting people in who can contribute to society - what about those "Britains" that don't contribute to our society? What should we do with these?
And immigrants can't offer anything until they become refugees or migrants and are allowed to work, get housing, pay taxes etc. Perhaps if our country had a quicker and more fair set of procedures in place we wouldn't have the backlog we have and then more migrants can contribute to this society like the majority want to.
nori said:beanie said:[no, I feel we actually have a duty as human beings to look after vulnerable people. And we can comfortably afford to do this as we only take in a small number compared to other countries. And this only letting people in who can contribute to society - what about those "Britains" that don't contribute to our society? What should we do with these?
And immigrants can't offer anything until they become refugees or migrants and are allowed to work, get housing, pay taxes etc. Perhaps if our country had a quicker and more fair set of procedures in place we wouldn't have the backlog we have and then more migrants can contribute to this society like the majority want to.
The Britains that dont contribute to society should get a firm kick up the arse and if they dont sort their act out then benefits are taken away from them. END of. i have no sympathy for lazy arse british spongers.
Im confused though at your comment that britain can comfortably afford to support them? The country is in an economic mess! Do we really take less immigrants than other countries based on the size of our country? Thats surprised me!
beanie said:nori said:beanie said:[no, I feel we actually have a duty as human beings to look after vulnerable people. And we can comfortably afford to do this as we only take in a small number compared to other countries. And this only letting people in who can contribute to society - what about those "Britains" that don't contribute to our society? What should we do with these?
And immigrants can't offer anything until they become refugees or migrants and are allowed to work, get housing, pay taxes etc. Perhaps if our country had a quicker and more fair set of procedures in place we wouldn't have the backlog we have and then more migrants can contribute to this society like the majority want to.
The Britains that dont contribute to society should get a firm kick up the arse and if they dont sort their act out then benefits are taken away from them. END of. i have no sympathy for lazy arse british spongers.
Im confused though at your comment that britain can comfortably afford to support them? The country is in an economic mess! Do we really take less immigrants than other countries based on the size of our country? Thats surprised me!
we could if the government was better run.
The trouble with such statements as all Britains that don't contribute should get a kick up the arse is that you are then forgetting that the group also includes people like the elderly, disabled, people who want to work but find it hard to hget work due to location, background etc. I know you will probably reply and say that you didn'tmean them (just the benfit scroungers) but you said those that can't contribute to society. Migrants are the same, some are able to work, some aren't for various reasons.
moss said:Hi everyone. I was afraid to look in here after my huge rant and rave because knowing me, I would have written 10 pages on my own. Everything that I could have said was said by Beanie. Yes, the UK takes a much lower per capita proportion than many countries, and it is the BNP and less extreme politicians, newspapers that make people think otherwise. Immigration is good for the economy, for the reasons Beanie said. I could go and repeat everything, but there is no point because those are the facts.
I lived in Edinburgh on two council estates. We had very few immigrants around, even though we are the capital city. I could have counted the number of families I saw on one hand. Also, there were HUNDREDS of empty flats, yet we still have homeless people. That is for a number of reasons, including
-Not all people you see on the street are actually homeless. Some pack up their gear and go home when they are finished busking, begging, etc.
-Not all homeless people are willing to apply for housing, whether this is because they are mentally ill, don't know how, or because they are just plain eccentric and don't feel the need for a home. No matter how misguided they are, there are people who genuinely believe there lives are better "outside of the system."
-Even the councils can evict people, and then they have no where to go.
I didn't see a shortage of housing in Edinburgh even though people went on and on about it. I saw a lack of tenants and I blame the council for this. I also agree completely that a lot of it is down to the right to buy laws. I see where these benefit people, like when they are still living in a feudal system of a laird ruling over the town, but not for social housing.
As for immigrants being willing to work for lower wages and in poorer conditions. Well, to some, poor conditions mean having to work over 37 hours of the week, with less than six weeks of holiday per year (I started on that in the NHS), which to the majority of the world is normal. For anyone other than that, it is more a fault of the employers and the regulatory agencies. The UK have strict laws on pay and working conditions and either some employers aren't following them properly by offering immigrants lower wages and poorer conditions, or the minimum wage isn't high enough. I think both of those are the case.
I agree that everyone is entitled to an opinion and their own beliefs, but I also believe that you have to own your beliefs and realise that there will be consequences. In the US there is the KKK. They are disgusting. Would you want them teaching your children? Would you want a neo-Nazi teaching them? The BNP's main beliefs, posted somewhere in the first six pages, are the same as any neo-Nazi. They are white supremacists. Sure, I agree that we need less crime and better education, but the methods they propose are extreme, racist, xenephobic, sexist... basically every negative, hateful adjective you can think of. All political parties want less crime, better education, etc., but the BNP want to do that by creating a fascist government.
I think people are getting mixed up between economic migrants and asylum seekers, etc. In order to be allowed to move here permanently, I had to have my rich grandmother sponsor me and sign a letter saying she would provide me with money if I ever need it, so as to prevent me from trying to claim benefits. This was when I was already married to a British person. Now that I have passed the first stages and am a legal resident with an indefinite stay and eligibility for citizenship, I am allowed to apply for benefits (but the only thing I get is MA, before you ask). Previous to that I paid inflated taxes (on the basic rate despite not earning much a lot of the time as an NHS worker). People are always shocked that I wasn't automatically allowed to live here once I married Shaun. I had to jump through a lot of loops to live the man I loved. It wasn't easy at all, even after we got married. I also had to shell out a lot in fees and struggle to interpret the procedures.
If it was that difficult for me, a white American (ie from a rich country) with a very wealthy sponsor, already married to a British citizen and, by the way, also the granddaughter of Scottish migrants to America with English as a first language, imagine how it is for the terrified people who had to run out of their homes without packing, barely being able to say good bye to their families and friends and maybe speaking a few words of English. Once they get here they are treated like common criminals and have to basically be arrested then interviewed until there cases are decided. It is not easy, it is not nice, and the only thing they get out of it is the assurance that they won't be murdered/raped/imprisoned where there is torture/forced into an abusive marriage/forced to serve in a military that carries out ethnic cleansing/victims of female genital mutilation, etc etc.
By the way, I will have been here ten years in January, and I am still not even allowed to vote, therefore I am not on the electoral roll and therefore cannot get things like loans and mortgages from most places. So please don't tell me it is easy to be an immigrant, or that they get more than a British citizen.
beanie said:![]()
and don't even get me started on detention centres and children being placed in them![]()
moss said:Hi everyone. I was afraid to look in here after my huge rant and rave because knowing me, I would have written 10 pages on my own. Everything that I could have said was said by Beanie. Yes, the UK takes a much lower per capita proportion than many countries, and it is the BNP and less extreme politicians, newspapers that make people think otherwise. Immigration is good for the economy, for the reasons Beanie said. I could go and repeat everything, but there is no point because those are the facts.
I lived in Edinburgh on two council estates. We had very few immigrants around, even though we are the capital city. I could have counted the number of families I saw on one hand. Also, there were HUNDREDS of empty flats, yet we still have homeless people. That is for a number of reasons, including
-Not all people you see on the street are actually homeless. Some pack up their gear and go home when they are finished busking, begging, etc.
-Not all homeless people are willing to apply for housing, whether this is because they are mentally ill, don't know how, or because they are just plain eccentric and don't feel the need for a home. No matter how misguided they are, there are people who genuinely believe there lives are better "outside of the system."
-Even the councils can evict people, and then they have no where to go.
I didn't see a shortage of housing in Edinburgh even though people went on and on about it. I saw a lack of tenants and I blame the council for this. I also agree completely that a lot of it is down to the right to buy laws. I see where these benefit people, like when they are still living in a feudal system of a laird ruling over the town, but not for social housing.
As for immigrants being willing to work for lower wages and in poorer conditions. Well, to some, poor conditions mean having to work over 37 hours of the week, with less than six weeks of holiday per year (I started on that in the NHS), which to the majority of the world is normal. For anyone other than that, it is more a fault of the employers and the regulatory agencies. The UK have strict laws on pay and working conditions and either some employers aren't following them properly by offering immigrants lower wages and poorer conditions, or the minimum wage isn't high enough. I think both of those are the case.
I agree that everyone is entitled to an opinion and their own beliefs, but I also believe that you have to own your beliefs and realise that there will be consequences. In the US there is the KKK. They are disgusting. Would you want them teaching your children? Would you want a neo-Nazi teaching them? The BNP's main beliefs, posted somewhere in the first six pages, are the same as any neo-Nazi. They are white supremacists. Sure, I agree that we need less crime and better education, but the methods they propose are extreme, racist, xenephobic, sexist... basically every negative, hateful adjective you can think of. All political parties want less crime, better education, etc., but the BNP want to do that by creating a fascist government.
I think people are getting mixed up between economic migrants and asylum seekers, etc. In order to be allowed to move here permanently, I had to have my rich grandmother sponsor me and sign a letter saying she would provide me with money if I ever need it, so as to prevent me from trying to claim benefits. This was when I was already married to a British person. Now that I have passed the first stages and am a legal resident with an indefinite stay and eligibility for citizenship, I am allowed to apply for benefits (but the only thing I get is MA, before you ask). Previous to that I paid inflated taxes (on the basic rate despite not earning much a lot of the time as an NHS worker). People are always shocked that I wasn't automatically allowed to live here once I married Shaun. I had to jump through a lot of loops to live the man I loved. It wasn't easy at all, even after we got married. I also had to shell out a lot in fees and struggle to interpret the procedures.
If it was that difficult for me, a white American (ie from a rich country) with a very wealthy sponsor, already married to a British citizen and, by the way, also the granddaughter of Scottish migrants to America with English as a first language, imagine how it is for the terrified people who had to run out of their homes without packing, barely being able to say good bye to their families and friends and maybe speaking a few words of English. Once they get here they are treated like common criminals and have to basically be arrested then interviewed until there cases are decided. It is not easy, it is not nice, and the only thing they get out of it is the assurance that they won't be murdered/raped/imprisoned where there is torture/forced into an abusive marriage/forced to serve in a military that carries out ethnic cleansing/victims of female genital mutilation, etc etc.
By the way, I will have been here ten years in January, and I am still not even allowed to vote, therefore I am not on the electoral roll and therefore cannot get things like loans and mortgages from most places. So please don't tell me it is easy to be an immigrant, or that they get more than a British citizen.
Red_Fairy said: