TORino
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Hear, hear.
Vitamin K
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Hear, hear.
vickib_1984
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I didn't mean it to sound as blunt as it was I just think google is evil and plants evil seeds in people's minds I'm sorry lewa I really am xx
vickib_1984
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And I also agree with cosmic girl xx
Lewa
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Thanks Vicky! And I do see your point though. I simply wanted to ask here because I don't necessarily trust what I read either, which is why I in my first post also asked for articles to support peoples opinions on the matter, as I didn't know if I can trust what I have read.
Right now I am reading articles found through google scholar instead, and since I'm in uni I can access quite a lot of information I otherwise couldn't as well! So far what I've found is that the connection to cancer seems to be wrong (one research showed a connection, several more resent studies from three different countries did not manage to find the connection to support that first research -
The West London Medical Journal 2011 Vol 3 No 1 pp 38-4)
I'm still unsure though, thinking that there could be other reasons why babies are born with less vitamin K that doctors do not know yet (there are many articles about other purposes of vitamin k that were unknown, for instance:
Vitamin K is traditionally recognized for its role in blood clotting. More recently, new roles for vitamin K have emerged. The current evidence for the role of vitamin K in bone, cardiovascular, and reproductive health will be discussed. There will be a particular focus on populations who could be at risk for vitamin K deficiency. - Abstract from Journal of Evidence-Based Complementary & Alternative Medicine 16(1) 73-79ª The Author(s) 2011) which makes me think that I might be right to think there might be dangers to high levels as well, that are not yet known. Even on the NHS website they say this:
What happens if I take too much vitamin K?
There is not enough evidence to know what the effects might be of taking high doses of vitamin K supplements each day.
What does the Department of Health advise?
You should be able to get all the vitamin K you need by eating a varied and balanced diet. If you take vitamin K supplements, do not take too much because this might be harmful.
Taking 1mg or less of vitamin K supplements a day is unlikely to cause any harm.
(http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/vitamins-minerals/Pages/Vitamin-K.aspx)
And as mustard said, the risk when not getting the injection is also so low anyway, that it makes me feel like I really need to research this properly before making a decision... unfortunately I don't have time to get a medical degree in the next 4 weeks taking a phd on this topic... :-/ Wish I could!
So yeah, I'm just confused, and want to do the right thing. I do think mustard had some good points though...
but might opt for the pill rather than the injection, as the pill is supposed to be good as well, but it seems a bit less drastic...
I'll keep reading though... and ask my midwife of course, but I'm pretty sure I know her answer already
Right now I am reading articles found through google scholar instead, and since I'm in uni I can access quite a lot of information I otherwise couldn't as well! So far what I've found is that the connection to cancer seems to be wrong (one research showed a connection, several more resent studies from three different countries did not manage to find the connection to support that first research -
The West London Medical Journal 2011 Vol 3 No 1 pp 38-4)
I'm still unsure though, thinking that there could be other reasons why babies are born with less vitamin K that doctors do not know yet (there are many articles about other purposes of vitamin k that were unknown, for instance:
Vitamin K is traditionally recognized for its role in blood clotting. More recently, new roles for vitamin K have emerged. The current evidence for the role of vitamin K in bone, cardiovascular, and reproductive health will be discussed. There will be a particular focus on populations who could be at risk for vitamin K deficiency. - Abstract from Journal of Evidence-Based Complementary & Alternative Medicine 16(1) 73-79ª The Author(s) 2011) which makes me think that I might be right to think there might be dangers to high levels as well, that are not yet known. Even on the NHS website they say this:
What happens if I take too much vitamin K?
There is not enough evidence to know what the effects might be of taking high doses of vitamin K supplements each day.
What does the Department of Health advise?
You should be able to get all the vitamin K you need by eating a varied and balanced diet. If you take vitamin K supplements, do not take too much because this might be harmful.
Taking 1mg or less of vitamin K supplements a day is unlikely to cause any harm.
(http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/vitamins-minerals/Pages/Vitamin-K.aspx)
And as mustard said, the risk when not getting the injection is also so low anyway, that it makes me feel like I really need to research this properly before making a decision... unfortunately I don't have time to get a medical degree in the next 4 weeks taking a phd on this topic... :-/ Wish I could!
So yeah, I'm just confused, and want to do the right thing. I do think mustard had some good points though...
but might opt for the pill rather than the injection, as the pill is supposed to be good as well, but it seems a bit less drastic...
I'll keep reading though... and ask my midwife of course, but I'm pretty sure I know her answer already
Lewa
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Actually, I won't read more about it now. Hubby told me not to because the stress and worry of me researching this in the way I am now is probably not healthy either... I guess he has a point!
I'm sorry if I upset or worried anyone! That was not my intention! But I could have "thread more carefully", so my apologies for that. I'm just tired, hungry, and confused, and hubby is busy with exams atm, so I feel like there's so much pressure on me because I'm the one who has to read about everything and make all the decisions about stuff like this..
I'm sorry if I upset or worried anyone! That was not my intention! But I could have "thread more carefully", so my apologies for that. I'm just tired, hungry, and confused, and hubby is busy with exams atm, so I feel like there's so much pressure on me because I'm the one who has to read about everything and make all the decisions about stuff like this..
redbear
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I gave vitamin K because i think honestly if most babies didnt need it and nature was enough then the NHS wouldn't waste all that money on it. I gave it without a second thought... they dont actually know what causes cancer thats why there isnt a cure yet so you will never know if the kids that had vit k would have or not anyway. I think they say so much causes things like that i dont really belive any of them anymore.
The needle thing doesnt bother me- they had to monitor baby by a needle under the skin during delivery but she will never know and they get me on my side to deliver and got her heart rate down so would not have had it any other way, so after that a little needle in the arm wont make a difference.
The needle thing doesnt bother me- they had to monitor baby by a needle under the skin during delivery but she will never know and they get me on my side to deliver and got her heart rate down so would not have had it any other way, so after that a little needle in the arm wont make a difference.
Lewa
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From what I've read (on babycentre, nhs etc, not "anti" websites) most babies don't need it. Only 5 in 100.000 who haven't had the injection suffer from the intercranial bleeding, often because they have some other problem that doesn't allow them to absorb enough vitamin K from the breastmilk or formula, which is why the injection or the pills help as there's so much that even with a problem absorbing it the babies will get enough to prevent intracranial bleeding. They used to only give it to high risk babies, but now give it to all because 1 in 3 babies who suffer from it are not high risk babies, and you can't know which babies will need it, so they give it to everyone to save those few (which is of course a positive thing, just saying it to provide some information)
Hayley1608
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We had the oral drops. Much less distressing for her
JensBump
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Yes standard practice is to give the injection but it is your choice and you need to feel comfortable with what is administered to your own child.
On a side note: only in the last week or so it has been revealed that the tamiflu, the mainstay of influenza treatment in the UK, may not decrease the risk of being hospitalised as previously claimed - and that is coming from a Cochrane and BMJ report - http://medicalxpress.com/news/2012-01-effects-tamiflu-uncertain-experts-roche.html.
I only mention that because we can only relay on the data that is currently publicly available - and this in time can change.
What I would like the most is to take a vitamin K supplement from now on, and keep taking it for a little while while breastfeeding, to make sure my breastmilk has a lot of vitamin K, and let nature work the way it's supposed to kind of... and only let them give him the tablets IF he is born by ventuose or forceps or similar which could cause internal bleeding.
Yes I agree that the type of birth you have is also important - if I do have an induction via drip or instrument birth I would consider giving the injection
I also read that epidurals can have an impact on the need of vitamin K as well, so I'm thinking that if I manage to get through everything naturally, then breastmilk should be enough, but if there are complications I'll let him have the pills. I'm wondering what my midwife will think of that though...
It is not a decision for your midwife to make
You can naturally build up your Vit K levels by eating foods high in vit K (http://www.vaughns-1-pagers.com/food/vitamin-k-foods.htm). You need to be taking 5mg per day (so taking an oral supplement may be necessary to get that amount) to build up the level of Vit K sufficiently in the milk - remember formula fed babies are being supplemented every day as it is already added to commercial milk.
It is also important that you feed very regularly in the first 24 hours - this is based on advice from the British Medical Journal.
Also delayed cord clamping is important in this case so that baby is getting full blood quota.
If you give the oral doses you must complete the course - usually 3 doses in the first 6 weeks
What I come across a lot when reading up on this is that doctors or midwives often say that they've seen babies suffer from internal bleeding, getting brain damage etc, and seen what it's done to them, so they would definitely do the shot, but the thing is, I know a three year old girl who has leukemia, and I really don't want to put my child at a risk of that either!
I am not basing my decision at all on the research linking cancer and the injection - but the risk of a baby having a bleed is roughly 1/2,000 in the first week and 1/6,000 in the first 3 months of life - in my local hospital the midwife has seen roughly 1 case a year.
At the same time it's hard to make a decision like that when the normal practice is to give the babies the injection!! It's like... how can I defend my position when it's done in hospitals all over England (and the states and other places) all the time....
Some other countries give the oral dose as standard practice - you may find this an interesting read http://www.whale.to/a/Hey.pdf
These choices are difficult but I think you need to go with what you feel most comfortable yourself.
On a side note: only in the last week or so it has been revealed that the tamiflu, the mainstay of influenza treatment in the UK, may not decrease the risk of being hospitalised as previously claimed - and that is coming from a Cochrane and BMJ report - http://medicalxpress.com/news/2012-01-effects-tamiflu-uncertain-experts-roche.html.
I only mention that because we can only relay on the data that is currently publicly available - and this in time can change.
What I would like the most is to take a vitamin K supplement from now on, and keep taking it for a little while while breastfeeding, to make sure my breastmilk has a lot of vitamin K, and let nature work the way it's supposed to kind of... and only let them give him the tablets IF he is born by ventuose or forceps or similar which could cause internal bleeding.
Yes I agree that the type of birth you have is also important - if I do have an induction via drip or instrument birth I would consider giving the injection
I also read that epidurals can have an impact on the need of vitamin K as well, so I'm thinking that if I manage to get through everything naturally, then breastmilk should be enough, but if there are complications I'll let him have the pills. I'm wondering what my midwife will think of that though...
It is not a decision for your midwife to make
You can naturally build up your Vit K levels by eating foods high in vit K (http://www.vaughns-1-pagers.com/food/vitamin-k-foods.htm). You need to be taking 5mg per day (so taking an oral supplement may be necessary to get that amount) to build up the level of Vit K sufficiently in the milk - remember formula fed babies are being supplemented every day as it is already added to commercial milk.
It is also important that you feed very regularly in the first 24 hours - this is based on advice from the British Medical Journal.
Also delayed cord clamping is important in this case so that baby is getting full blood quota.
If you give the oral doses you must complete the course - usually 3 doses in the first 6 weeks
What I come across a lot when reading up on this is that doctors or midwives often say that they've seen babies suffer from internal bleeding, getting brain damage etc, and seen what it's done to them, so they would definitely do the shot, but the thing is, I know a three year old girl who has leukemia, and I really don't want to put my child at a risk of that either!
I am not basing my decision at all on the research linking cancer and the injection - but the risk of a baby having a bleed is roughly 1/2,000 in the first week and 1/6,000 in the first 3 months of life - in my local hospital the midwife has seen roughly 1 case a year.
At the same time it's hard to make a decision like that when the normal practice is to give the babies the injection!! It's like... how can I defend my position when it's done in hospitals all over England (and the states and other places) all the time....
Some other countries give the oral dose as standard practice - you may find this an interesting read http://www.whale.to/a/Hey.pdf
These choices are difficult but I think you need to go with what you feel most comfortable yourself.
Lewa
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Thank you JensBump, for taking the time to give such a thorough reply! I really appreciate it! And I agree with you on the first point. The thing with science is that it's only true until disproved. The national guidline is to do it, but that doesn't mean that everyone who does it has studied it in depth and made a decision on whether it is the best options, might have other unknown side effects etc. They have so much to learn that they have to trust what is being taught them. And as I mentioned in a later post, even on the NHS website they say they do not yet know if consuming very high doses of vitamin K can be harmful, so they recommend getting it through nutrition rather than supplements. So.. I still think it's worth looking into, and not just doing it because it's common practice. I want to know that whatever decision I make it is based on thorough investigation and that I can stand for it..
Thank you for the information about the cord clamping etc as well, I had read that somewhere too, and was planning on asking for a delayed clamping already! (and as I said, if I don't have a straight forward birth the injection or tablets seem to be more of an obvious choice than if it's a natural water birth for instance.)
When writing my birth plan I realised how everything is so linked together. Which is why I'm aiming for natural birth. It seems once you do one thing, the risk of something else being needed increases, which increases the risk for something else, etc. etc. (for instance - epidural gives higher risk of ventuose, forceps or cesarean, which again increases the risk of internal bleeding) And everything is chained like that. Of course, if things don't progress as it should, and other options are tried and hasn't worked, then I'll let them do whatever i takes, because the risk of not doing it is higher than the risk of doing it! But I hope that at least I can do anything I can to prevent an increase of any risks what so ever, by for instance aiming for as few drugs as I can..
so yeah.. it might have to be a judgement call made there and then based on the circumstances as well.. I'll talk to my midwife about taking vitamin K supplements, and if she says that that's safe, then at least I can start doing that and have all options open!
Right now I'm wondering how I'll cope with being a mother... so many more things to worry about!! And I worry and often overthink things a LOT....
Thank you for the information about the cord clamping etc as well, I had read that somewhere too, and was planning on asking for a delayed clamping already! (and as I said, if I don't have a straight forward birth the injection or tablets seem to be more of an obvious choice than if it's a natural water birth for instance.)
When writing my birth plan I realised how everything is so linked together. Which is why I'm aiming for natural birth. It seems once you do one thing, the risk of something else being needed increases, which increases the risk for something else, etc. etc. (for instance - epidural gives higher risk of ventuose, forceps or cesarean, which again increases the risk of internal bleeding) And everything is chained like that. Of course, if things don't progress as it should, and other options are tried and hasn't worked, then I'll let them do whatever i takes, because the risk of not doing it is higher than the risk of doing it! But I hope that at least I can do anything I can to prevent an increase of any risks what so ever, by for instance aiming for as few drugs as I can..
so yeah.. it might have to be a judgement call made there and then based on the circumstances as well.. I'll talk to my midwife about taking vitamin K supplements, and if she says that that's safe, then at least I can start doing that and have all options open!
Right now I'm wondering how I'll cope with being a mother... so many more things to worry about!! And I worry and often overthink things a LOT....
JensBump
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Yes I am very like that myself LOL I am already looking into vaccines - my poor DH has to listen to it all the time
I agree completely with the chained effect - also aiming for natural birth and planning to stay home as long as possible - I have been re-reading Ina May's Guide to childbirth and I would recommend it for not only empowering natural birth stories but also ones where it didn't go to plan but the outcome was still positive
I agree completely with the chained effect - also aiming for natural birth and planning to stay home as long as possible - I have been re-reading Ina May's Guide to childbirth and I would recommend it for not only empowering natural birth stories but also ones where it didn't go to plan but the outcome was still positive
vickib_1984
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I think as research shows babies are born with low vit k because they need good circulation in the womb etc I think drops are pointless because babies tend to be very sicky and bring a lot of mucus up after the first few feeds so would bring the drops up as well.......I don't really see it as distressing for them as they soon forget and it's done pretty much straight after birth and much less painful than the heel prick test which babies tend to scream at as they do find the painful as well as shocking mainly........you will do as you see fit for you an your baby I think you need to step away from google for a bit and give your mind a rest lol xxx
Lilelephant
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I think we all do what we think is right for our LO's at the end of the day. I am a health professional and I think that makes me more open to the "unnatural" things. These things were developed to help us!
I am no mother earth! Epidural, vit k and the injection for the placenta twice lol
I am no mother earth! Epidural, vit k and the injection for the placenta twice lol
lyndsey_28
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im all for the vitamin k injection, 10 years ago when i had my first child you just relied solely on the information provided to you by MW, Doctor, Health visitor there was no lets just google this and scare the life out of yourself!!
i believe that if summat gonna happen then it will regardles of whether you have followed/not followed advice and guidlines offered to you by health professionals, personally for me if its gonna be beneficial to my little one im all for it
my nearly 10 and 4 year old have had all the injections available to them without having any doubts, or googling so my 3rd baby will have the same no questions asked as far as im concerned im doing whats best for my baby xx
i believe that if summat gonna happen then it will regardles of whether you have followed/not followed advice and guidlines offered to you by health professionals, personally for me if its gonna be beneficial to my little one im all for it
my nearly 10 and 4 year old have had all the injections available to them without having any doubts, or googling so my 3rd baby will have the same no questions asked
as far as im concerned im doing whats best for my baby xx
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im going to have whatever they think is best as theyre the professionals and i have a lot of faith in medicine in general. without it or vaccinations and vitamin supplements we wouldnt have folic acid, pregnacare etc and would still be living in fear of scurvy and the black death.
redbear
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Yeh my auntie had a baby die at 8 month pregnant because it didnt develop its skull, that was 35 years ago and its a condition that is stopped by taking Folic Acid, it only happens to 1 in 10000 babies but happened to someone close to me, you still hear people saying 'oh they never used to give you that its all rubbish'... so i agree with what BevG says.
Btw im not been horrid but your birth plan etc goes out of the window in and just after labour, like i said if they need to monitor baby it has to have a needle under its skin and the little injection of vit k isnt going to upset it Alice didnt even cry by then she was sucking her lips lol x
Btw im not been horrid but your birth plan etc goes out of the window in and just after labour, like i said if they need to monitor baby it has to have a needle under its skin and the little injection of vit k isnt going to upset it Alice didnt even cry by then she was sucking her lips lol x
i have done a bit of a read up about it and actually the oral dose is nowhere near as good as the injection, especially if you are breastfeeding, as you dont produce as much vitamin k as what is in the powdered form.
im gonna have it, as the things they can get without it, seem to look far less treatable than the leukemia etc you can get (minute chance i might add) if you do take it.
life is full of risks, we all had it and seem alright, just do your own readin and make up your own mind
im gonna have it, as the things they can get without it, seem to look far less treatable than the leukemia etc you can get (minute chance i might add) if you do take it.
life is full of risks, we all had it and seem alright, just do your own readin and make up your own mind
