Lowering abortion limits

[Krystal]

Jade - although I agree in that situation I would be the same as you and choose my child I don't think it's right for you to judge Amethyst on this thread. It's about the current abortion limit not her situation and regardless of what we think i'm sure she is having a hard enough time as it is without people giving their tuppance worth on it

 

[Kimbo]

i havent read all through the replies but i think it should be lowered to 12 weeks unless for medical reasons
also, they shouldnt do the abortion like they do (physical pain on the fetus), they should have some sort of injection that gives the baby a pain free death

 

[bobby1]

Wow, that is really young! A lot of people don't know their pregnant by that point, especially if not been recording their dates properly. I would say 12 as a minimum and 16 as a maximum.

 

[Kimbo]

Wow, that is really young! A lot of people don't know their pregnant by that point, especially if not been recording their dates properly. I would say 12 as a minimum and 16 as a maximum.

ok edited lol xx

 

[bobby1]

You're entitled to your own opinion. I was just shocked by it lol

 

[leckershell]

I don't really know where I stand to be honest. I think anything past 20 weeks gives the chance of people aborting after finding out the sex of their baby at the 20 (ish) week scan... which probably happens. I think what concerns me is what was said in that channel 4 programme a while back - a 21 (?) week old baby being killed in one hospital room but being worked on to keep alive in another. That really made me think. But to abort after the 16 week amnio/scan thingys seems a reasonable reason if something was thrown up to be a problem... so what 18 weeks?
I was told that for me, my doctor wouldn't be too happy if I was to have an abortion past 14 weeks for reasons of *my* health (don't know why) and when I found out, I was about 8 weeks.. it was over Christmas and New Year and by the time I would have had my consultation and then a termination booking, I would have been past or very close to the 14 weeks, and past the 12 week scan date... so I kept Ryan. Not purely because I was pushing the termination deadlines, but at the time this was one of my main reasons as nasty as that sounds.
And believe me I am so glad I didn't have an abortion.. I still feel guilt that I had considered it.

Hugs to Amethyst by the way, I don't really know the full story but you sound like you have a lot on your plate at the moment. xxx

 

[poppy160]

My OH and I were just discussing this, it's a really horrible thing to think about.
Obviously I think there should be one rule for some people and one for another. In my opinion, the abortion rate should be higher for women who are pregnant with babies who would have severe disabilities in life..but where would the line be drawn? Which disabilities would or would not be considered?
But for women who have fallen pregnant because of carelessness with contraception/failed contraception I think the abortion rate should be 12 weeks which I think is still too high but if it were any lower then obviously there wouldn't be enough time to think things through properly.
I don't think the law will change much. Instead of leaving it to MP's to decide I think they should ask members of the public's opinions. Would never happen, though

 

[MagicMarkers]

I thinkkk, been reading through everyones post and from experiences of people i know and allsorts of stuff i think 12 weeks for social, and 18 for medical, but i think maybe they should have 2 types of medical, sort of upto 18 weeks for impaired quality of life, 20 for threat of life to mother, or severe life threatening or limiting disabilities. Im not sure that makese sense, but my point is that if you found out your life was in danger after 18 weeks you should still have the option.
I think theres no excuse socially for abortion after 12 weeks, i think that by this time will have known they were pregnant long enough to be able to know what they want, and do something about it. Same as Nicki, at 22 weeks i feel like i know LO, and i cant imagine someone feeling the little kicks and punches and wanting to get rid of the baby ( because thats what they are at this point ) inside them
Also i agree with sweet that you cant compare social to medical abortion at all, the choice is out of your hands with medical in my view.


I agree this thread isnt about amethyst, but seeing as she has told her story i feel that she cant really shy away from people expressing their opinions on her situation, good or bad, im sure she has as much support for whichever path she chooses. However i dont know your situation very well hun, but am not quite sure why youve let it get this far into your pregnancy, youve got an impossible decision to make but in my eyes getting rid of a baby you *want* for any reason other than medical is madness. In my eyes if you want the baby and hubby wants the baby, have the baby its as simple as that in my eyes, surely a life without grandparents is better than no life at all ?

Sorry if i shouldnt have comented, but got me thinking, sorry.

 

[Kimbo]

My OH and I were just discussing this, it's a really horrible thing to think about.
Obviously I think there should be one rule for some people and one for another. In my opinion, the abortion rate should be higher for women who are pregnant with babies who would have severe disabilities in life..but where would the line be drawn? Which disabilities would or would not be considered?
But for women who have fallen pregnant because of carelessness with contraception/failed contraception I think the abortion rate should be 12 weeks which I think is still too high but if it were any lower then obviously there wouldn't be enough time to think things through properly.
I don't think the law will change much. Instead of leaving it to MP's to decide I think they should ask members of the public's opinions. Would never happen, though

 

[Squiglet]

18 for disability (severe)

I disagree with this one point. All you have to do is look at the SANDS forum. There are people there devasted by the fact they are waiting for an impending loss and don't take the decision to abort so late as a light decision. There are also the cases where the mothers health is at risk too. These people are ones that have looked forward to this child so much then found out that their child is going to have such a poor quality of life that they may find it easier to 'abort' so all people involved.

I just feel you can't compare the decision to abort with a medical reason iykwim.

I do think medical is different and obviously some people dont find out until later on.

I know a women who recently had a baby, she was told after her downs test and scans they thought something was wrong with baby, she choose not to have an amnio and to continue her pregnanct regardless, she went in to labour at 35 weeks and he was still born. He looked completely perfect but only had 2 vessels in his cord and would have had severe disabilities if he'd managed to live.

I dont think any women should have to go through what she did with her baby, she took a chance continuing and i doubt she regrets it, but i think it is easier to lose a severly disabled child at 24 weeks and make that decision, then to live every day wondering and lose them at a much later date, i also think its more stress on her body.

I was speaking to my mum a while ago about my sister who died from Edwards syndrome... she was going to the S.O.F.T Ireland convention (I posted something in the Adult area with regards to it to those who remember )

Anyway...she said that looking back with hindsight...she is not sure whether she would have continued with the pregnancy had she known at 16 weeks something was wrong and what the outcome of would have been. She said that Sheena's death was far more traumatic than the baby she lost at 24 weeks... Although both were horrible...she was able to more easily reconcile the loss at 24 weeks as it being a baby born too soon... but Sheena... well that was her child dying... I suppose my mum can see both sides of this argument.

 

[NickyB]

I think the maximum of 24 weeks for medical reasons should be left, we were discussing this at work this afternoon. For reasons of amnio's at 16 weeks, scans at 20 weeks, some are later, and some time to make a very hard decision.

However, I didn't realise that the medical limit wouldn't be changed. I've no real experience on the social side of it though, I can't help thinking that 24 weeks is a loooong time. You must know by then? Unless in very specific circumstances?

 

[Krystal]

You must know by then? Unless in very specific circumstances?

A friend of mine has just found out she was pregnant at 26 weeks. She admits had she of been a little earlier she would have terminated the pregnancy. She never wanted children after the age of 30 (now 38) due to family history with cancer. She hadn't missed her first few periods and was going through loads of tests at hospital due to symptoms and thinking it could be cancer. When she did miss her periods she put it down to the stress and cos she had split with her bf a few months earlier than her missed period didn't consider the fact she could be. Neither did the docs. Mad but not unhear of

 

[beanie]

I read a very good article on this which stated

"With the way in which the late-term abortion debate is framed by politicians and the media, it is understandable to balk at the subject, understandable to find it problematic - until you begin to speak to women who have gone through the procedure later than 20 weeks. Many of those who have late-term abortions are the most vulnerable: teenagers who didn't realise that they were pregnant until five months' gestation; women with learning disabilities; those using methadone in drug rehabilitation programmes, which puts a halt to your periods. Women like the one I read of recently, whose partner started beating her up when she became pregnant, and who feared she would never be able to escape him if she had his baby. (In more than 30% of domestic violence cases, the abuse started during pregnancy.) Women who have suffered a severely traumatic episode - the death of a partner, or a child, for instance - who fear that the stress might affect foetal development. The BPAS has just published a 28-day audit of late-term abortion requests, to be distributed to MPs. The stories include that of a woman with two small daughters from a previous marriage, who had an unplanned pregnancy with her current partner, which he urged her to continue. She then found out that he was abusing her daughters. As Ann Furedi of BPAS says, the stories "provide a really stark contrast to the abstract, philosophical and rather sterile discussion about viability and not viability. What this does is to take it woman by woman. The challenge that we're putting to MPs is to look at this and think about it - what makes you think that the lives of these women would have been better if they'd had to continue their pregnancy? We're talking about women who, by their own admission, are saying, 'I cannot cope with having this child'.""

http://lifeandhealth.guardian.co.uk/wom ... 95,00.html

I have been very lucky. My first child was planned and the 20 week scan showed she was healthy. My second daughter wasn't planned and I was terrified. I had PND after Seren's birth and was very scared of feeling the same way. However I have an amazing family who support me and Cally arrived and thankfully the PND didn't. When I think that I was considering whether I could go through this pregnancy I feel a sense of shame - I look at Cally and could not imagine my life without her but at 6 weeks I never knew her. I feel very lucky to have my two girls but my babies were wanted and I was in a position to be able to get through it all.

I personally don't see the point of forcing women to have babies they don't want or feel they can't have. Yes abortion is a horrible subject and doesn't sit easily on anyones moral conscience but forcing women to have their babies is not the answer as it could result in emotional trauma for both mother and baby and we have enough emotionally damaged kids in this world as it is. contraception failure happens, no method is 100%

 

[zebrastripes]

beanie- I agree 100%.

Basically, I think lowering th limit has potentially disastrous consequences. The current abortion debate isn't about babies, it is about certain right wing fundamentalists trying to get their foot in the door, to make women's choices for them.

I think abortion at 24 weeks is a horrible thing. I would absolutely die if it was me.

BUT it is such a tiny percentage-1.45 of women who have abortions is after 22 weeks, the vast majority- 86% I think- are preformed under 14 weeks.

And as beanie said, these women must be desperate to choose such a drastic method. If you force these women to have their babies, the consequences could be awful. The children could grow up to have an extremely low quality of life, being abused, the subject of domestic violence, which in turn may lead to them eventually turning to crime....

It is not nice, but it has to be a choice. Lowering the limit may be the first step on a slippery slope, that is, back to the dark ages. It is the first rung on the ladder to making abortions, if not illegal, then very very difficult to get. This will mean that once again, many women and girls will be dying on the table of the backstreet abortionist.

Since abortion was legalised, there has been no known case in the mainland UK of a woman dying from a backstreet abortion. In Northern Ireland, where it is still illegal, there have been six. And this is in the day when you can get a cheap flight to England.

I myself know of a few girls who have gotten backstreet abortions. One particular case I know of was an aquaintanceof mine, raped coming home from the shops, aged just 11. She confided in her older sister, who bought her a bottle of vodka and instructed her to drink it. She then brought her to some " friends" who gave her what is commonly known as "a kicking". She miscarried, and now may be infertile.

I personally could not have an abortion except of course, in certain circumstances. And even then, it would have to be an early one. However, I am strongly pro choice as although abortion is not a nice option, sometimes it is the only way, and it is the lesser evil IMO

Oh and in regards to the whole not-knowing-you-are-pregnant until such a time, well I didn't know until I was about 15 weeks- I mean I genuinely didn't know as my periods have always been very sporadic also the nausea i put down to the fact i have a very weak stomach although as time went on their was an element of denial involved but for quite a long time I was clueless. And I'm not particulary ignorant or naive either

 

[amethyst_echidna]

I would like to say thank you to everyone on this thread. I've been agonising over my decision for days and in the back of my mind felt that it wasn't "right" even though it still seemed like my only option.

Thinking about what you have all said I've come to realise that I couldn't go through with an abortion. I'm not sure when life begins but the fact is I have a healthy baby in there and unless I have the pregnancy terminated the odds are that he/she would be born happy and healthy. Also thinking more about it I know my parents and hubby's parents would be deeply shocked (mine are extremely conservative and his are Greek Orthodox) but tbh I think eventually they'd come round, even if it took time for them to get used to the idea. Extended family can go screw themselves if they don't like it, it's just our parents I want to be there, and at the end of the day if they know this is what we want then I'm sure they'll support us, certainly more than if we'd had a late termination.

Just to clear things up - the reason I'd left this so late is because trying to get my health card for the Spanish healthcare system took absolutely ages.

I'm sorry ladies, I feel awful for even considering abortion now. It was my own mistake in the first place and I should stand up for that myself, take it on the chin and do the right thing. I've been crying all afternoon about this. I was just so scared and I didn't want to be left alone to have my first baby, or for the child to feel alienated by his/her own family.

AMETHYST

 

[Jade&Evie]

I've been crying all afternoon about this. I was just so scared and I didn't want to be left alone to have my first baby, or for the child to feel alienated by his/her own family.

AMETHYST

don't be upset- it's not good for 'bump' or you.

As long as you love your LO (which you will, more than the world, when you see them) that's all that matters. The rest will just fall into place x

 

[poppy160]

They're voting now! After listening to them debating I don't think it's going to go down by much

 

[kellyannlyle]

OMG I have never read a posting with so many opinions..... I have actually had an abortion myslef at 19 - had an accident with a guy and took the morning after pill... wasn't in the situation to have a child then.

Now at 25 I fell pregnant as the product of an affair, still not in the situation to have a child so I considered an abortion at 11weeks... Went to my appointment and everything but I could not go through with it.

Now when I think back to then I made the decision when I was 6 weeks... now at 17 + 5 I can not imagine having gone through with it... I feel the baby and watched the scan.

I was concerned that at 12 weeks I did not feel anything for the baby and regretted walking away from the termination but the day that I saw my 12 week scan I fell to pieces!!! How could I have the regrets??? haha

But I agree that it should be lowered but to 12 weeks might be a bit harsh!! The 1st time I was 11 weeks wen I found out that I was pregnant... still had my period and the morning after pill.........

 

[fran_23]

My baby is the product of an affair, she is the other mans, i still love her and still want her, and the guy who was cheated loves her too and is there for us,and would be with me if i'd allow him to be (taking it slowly) so i dont agree with that tbh. However as stated in my above post, im not gonna have a go at anyone who does have an abortion, its just my personal view, and from reading your previous posts i know how much all this is affecting you

i think it was really unfair to say that- its not your desision or your life and just because her circumstances might sound similar to yours it doesnt give you the right to say that. sorry but i just think that was unkind even if you did dress it up afterwards with a hug and saying you understand- maybe if you disagree you should just say nothing because you have probably made her feel really bad about it..its not your life and doesnt affect you so what was the worth in picking like that?

 

[Redshoes]

I read a very good article on this which stated

"With the way in which the late-term abortion debate is framed by politicians and the media, it is understandable to balk at the subject, understandable to find it problematic - until you begin to speak to women who have gone through the procedure later than 20 weeks. Many of those who have late-term abortions are the most vulnerable: teenagers who didn't realise that they were pregnant until five months' gestation; women with learning disabilities; those using methadone in drug rehabilitation programmes, which puts a halt to your periods. Women like the one I read of recently, whose partner started beating her up when she became pregnant, and who feared she would never be able to escape him if she had his baby. (In more than 30% of domestic violence cases, the abuse started during pregnancy.) Women who have suffered a severely traumatic episode - the death of a partner, or a child, for instance - who fear that the stress might affect foetal development. The BPAS has just published a 28-day audit of late-term abortion requests, to be distributed to MPs. The stories include that of a woman with two small daughters from a previous marriage, who had an unplanned pregnancy with her current partner, which he urged her to continue. She then found out that he was abusing her daughters. As Ann Furedi of BPAS says, the stories "provide a really stark contrast to the abstract, philosophical and rather sterile discussion about viability and not viability. What this does is to take it woman by woman. The challenge that we're putting to MPs is to look at this and think about it - what makes you think that the lives of these women would have been better if they'd had to continue their pregnancy? We're talking about women who, by their own admission, are saying, 'I cannot cope with having this child'.""

http://lifeandhealth.guardian.co.uk/wom ... 95,00.html

I have been very lucky. My first child was planned and the 20 week scan showed she was healthy. My second daughter wasn't planned and I was terrified. I had PND after Seren's birth and was very scared of feeling the same way. However I have an amazing family who support me and Cally arrived and thankfully the PND didn't. When I think that I was considering whether I could go through this pregnancy I feel a sense of shame - I look at Cally and could not imagine my life without her but at 6 weeks I never knew her. I feel very lucky to have my two girls but my babies were wanted and I was in a position to be able to get through it all.

I personally don't see the point of forcing women to have babies they don't want or feel they can't have. Yes abortion is a horrible subject and doesn't sit easily on anyones moral conscience but forcing women to have their babies is not the answer as it could result in emotional trauma for both mother and baby and we have enough emotionally damaged kids in this world as it is. contraception failure happens, no method is 100%

Agree with you entirely beanie.
I'm fortunate to have never been pregnant without planning it, so I wouldn't judge someone for being in that position and choosing abortion. I think this sort of thing is an individual case basis, not just a right wrong debate.