She really is a handful

[Wobbles]

I'm completely a nervous wreck around my girls
I feel like I'm always shouting
I try to stay sane ...think of another way to deal with it but can't
It must sound like we are throttling them (the screams)
I am constantly telling them off (gawd help what our neighbours think)

First it was Megan OMG this baby girl was never happy but she's a little more contented and Caitlin just screamed all day with it. 2 little girls who don't play with their toys but follow Mummy round screaming and should you dare leave the room OH BOY. If I go to kitchen which is off the living/dining area they stand there and scream scream scream - I swear I burnt myself last week because of this and trying to cook it was horrific. There's NO reason.

Caitlin seems so unhappy and that makes me sad. She does everything she shouldn't.
Throws her food across the floor/table
Smoothers yoghurt all round her face (infact any foods possible)
Spits her milk and juice over furniture then rubs it all over with her hands
Spits her milk and juice into her toy sink and washes Megan with it
Pushes Megan quite a bit
Takes everything off her
Throws herself on the floor
Screams most of the time she is home ...usually including the tears and big red eyes
The girls don't play nice together

Does everything she knows she shouldn't (Megan learning behind her).

In the mornings getting them ready for nursery I'm honestly a wreck by the time I get to the front door. I can't even get myself ready properly - screams cries misbehaving all round.

Weekend just gone I have to say after a full week of nursery I found it really hard (how bad is that) ...getting any organisation or will to go out is exhausting and has been for a long time ...even to do activities around the home/garden is just exhausting ...after the smothered food in hair, face and all sticky there goes the idea anyway. There's no go in my house it's just not realistic. I can't get out the door having a pre normal day or a normal day to follow.

We can't even have our evening meal until after 7pm ...I hate cooking late at night atm and tbh eating so late on really isn't appealing with Caitlin's 5am starts (wtf is that about I don't know how she's running) as I've been going to bed earlier so no thanks with a tummy of spag bol! Blergh that's after trying to get a shower because I can't in the mornings which can go to 9pm because Caitlin refuses to sleep until we've gone up 5+ times!

Sorry a proper long post - Is it just me? Because I'm starting to feel pretty lousy that my girls are apparently so happy and well behaved in nursery yet at home so miserable loud and tears all day long! What am I doing wrong.

 

[Sam's Mum]

Kids are ALWAYS better behaved for everyone else - I've heard so many people say that... and while it probably seems like they're being a nightmare it's all totally normal (not that that helps or makes it any less frustrating but it's kind of nice to know it's nothing to do with them or you). I've just read Toddler Taming by Dr Christopher Green and it's brilliant - doesn't make you feel like you're being told what to do, or that there's any specific way to bring up any one child as they're all different, but it's more about helping you understand why they do what they do and the best way to deal with it, and shows you how normal it all is too...very well written.

Sorry for quick reply - got a screaming child under one arm! x x

 

[Wobbles]

I guess overall I'm just wondering how normal this is with just the 2.5 toddler or 2 so close in age or if it is just me.

I've never read a single book on parenting actually always been a bit nose turning about them but I think I may consider this one now and swallow my pride haha Can I borrow yours

 

[Sam's Mum]

Hubby's reading it (neither of us had read any before either but someone recommended ut to me so thought I'd see if it was any good) but I'll see how much he's got left tonight! And it's nothing to do with you. They quickly learn what they have to do to get our attention, and 99% of the things they do are for attention - if we're busy cooking/cleaning or doing anything that doesn't involve all our attention being focused on them they'd rather have any sort of attention (including being told off) than none. It's so hard to do but one thing that usually works is to ignore it as much as possible, as long as they know what they're doing is wrong and they're not in any danger..if she throws food just clean it up without saying anything and wiuthout eye contact. They soon learn that it's not worth doing it..and if there's something she'll help with make sure she gets loads straight away. Sam's awful with Toby sometimes too but he's gradually getting better but only after I realised that trying to tell him off every time wasn't making any difference at all. Hope none of that sounds like a lecture..I'm totally clueless and would love any tips anyone has - and my phone has written this whole post on one huge line so I can't read what I've written

 

[DanDecMum]

I think your Caitlin and my Declan should be put in a room together, they sound so alike, well apart from the food smearing Dec wouldnt dream of wasting his food !! lol I am sorry to tell you this hun but what you have just wrote sounds completely normal to me. Dec pushes a lot and not only that but he has progressed to kicking, punching, slapping and nipping But when he is away from me he is a complete angel.

One thing I have noticed since I have given Dec more freedom and make him do things on his own like going to the toilet by himself, dressing and undressing himself, picking his own clothes, helping around the house LOTS and letting him walk instead of being in the pram he seems to have calmed down a little.

If you dont mind me asking how is Caitlins speech ?? They put alot of Dec's naughtiness and whinging down to not be able to fully express himself and thats another thing since he has started to speak in full complete sentences and say anything he wants he seems a little calmer and doesnt get worked up as easily.

If the worst comes to the worst go back to basics "IGNORE, IGNORE, IGNORE" always works for me. xx

 

[Wobbles]

Ive tried that but must admit some of it again comes down to after all 'that' its easier to make it easier ...like buggyboard, not going out at all, getting the cleaning done faster - The 2 combined is a nightmare. Now we've noticed (not always) that Caitlin turns into this little girl when Megan is not about (napping) and Caitlin isn't over tired

Speech - You know what I have no idea what is the normal. She is definately more understanding of things and is making sense to us more and more but not sure ...

Asks for foods like toast weetabix biscuit crisps but I guess not saying what she'd like for lunch etc if she pushes her beans away won't replace with anything she would like.
Knows what poorly is - Like a sore knee would be poorly (where shes grazed)
Knows how to stamp her feet when Mummy wants to watch deal or no deal and she doesn't (noted this yesterday she went MAD lol)
Knows peoples names (to an extent mummy, daddy, charls (me grrrr), george (nursery friend), lisa (nursery worker), sally (nursery worker).
Toilet & potty understanding what they are
Very mixed up with 1-10 still (counting)
Knows what some objects are
Knows what breakfast lunch dinner supper means and going to her chair
Knows bed
Knows bath (& asks for one)

Is that what you mean?

She definitely knows what shurrup means tells Megan to shurrup (the cheek of that)

 

[Wobbles]

Hubby's reading it (neither of us had read any before either but someone recommended ut to me so thought I'd see if it was any good) but I'll see how much he's got left tonight! And it's nothing to do with you. They quickly learn what they have to do to get our attention, and 99% of the things they do are for attention - if we're busy cooking/cleaning or doing anything that doesn't involve all our attention being focused on them they'd rather have any sort of attention (including being told off) than none. It's so hard to do but one thing that usually works is to ignore it as much as possible, as long as they know what they're doing is wrong and they're not in any danger..if she throws food just clean it up without saying anything and wiuthout eye contact. They soon learn that it's not worth doing it..and if there's something she'll help with make sure she gets loads straight away. Sam's awful with Toby sometimes too but he's gradually getting better but only after I realised that trying to tell him off every time wasn't making any difference at all. Hope none of that sounds like a lecture..I'm totally clueless and would love any tips anyone has - and my phone has written this whole post on one huge line so I can't read what I've written

Caitlin was honestly fab with Megan - its not been that long since its become a bit of a problem.

I try to ignore but sometime as me & OH work and live together our ways clash which isn't good. But it kinda can't be helped.

I have tried the ignore with both but I am not joing after an hour none stop of ignoring (+ headache) its a killer and they can go on past that ...not an exaggeration at all. Hence wanting to bang my head off a brick wall lol

 

[Sam's Mum]

I don't blame you! Things are definitely getting harder here now that Toby's started crawling and I think Sam's started seeing him as more competition, especially as he wants to follow Sam everywhere and play with the things he's playing with. I have to agree that speech made a massive difference here too though - I think a huge part of the tantrums etc. with Sam was just down to frustration as he knew what he wanted but didn't know how to tell me (unlike the 'I want a smoothie, I want a smoothie, I want a smoothie' I am having to listen to at the moment I'm sure as Caitlin's improves and she can tell you exactly what she wants there will be a lot less screaming (just lots of repeating things over and over again because they think eventually you'll give in )

Hope things get easier for you soon x x

 

[DanDecMum]

Ive tried that but must admit some of it again comes down to after all 'that' its easier to make it easier ...like buggyboard, not going out at all, getting the cleaning done faster - The 2 combined is a nightmare. Now we've noticed (not always) that Caitlin turns into this little girl when Megan is not about (napping) and Caitlin isn't over tired

Speech - You know what I have no idea what is the normal. She is definately more understanding of things and is making sense to us more and more but not sure ...

Asks for foods like toast weetabix biscuit crisps but I guess not saying what she'd like for lunch etc if she pushes her beans away won't replace with anything she would like.
Knows what poorly is - Like a sore knee would be poorly (where shes grazed)
Knows how to stamp her feet when Mummy wants to watch deal or no deal and she doesn't (noted this yesterday she went MAD lol)
Knows peoples names (to an extent mummy, daddy, charls (me grrrr), george (nursery friend), lisa (nursery worker), sally (nursery worker).
Toilet & potty understanding what they are
Very mixed up with 1-10 still (counting)
Knows what some objects are
Knows what breakfast lunch dinner supper means and going to her chair
Knows bed
Knows bath (& asks for one)

Is that what you mean?

She definitely knows what shurrup means tells Megan to shurrup (the cheek of that)

See that was the thing with Dec he was very smart just like Caitlin and knew just about everything, understood what he was being told and what he had to do but he didnt have the speech skills to tell me what he wanted, he knew what he wanted he just couldnt say the words for it. The speech therapist said that could be way he was behaving the way he was, he understood so much but couldnt express (with words) his opinion of what he understood. If that makes sense to you.
For example a few months ago if I tried to explain to Dec that I didnt want him to do a certain thing and that I would prefer if we did something else then there would have been hell to pay because he couldnt explain to me that he would like to continue with what he was doing rather than go do something else with me.

I hope this makes sense because it helped me alot, I just asked more questions when he threw a fit, to try and get him to express what he wanted by showing me rather than telling me. Believe me it helps

 

[Aidans Mummy]

It's totally normal hun, although do you think it may be jeaoulsy with caitlyn? Like when you try and juggle your time she may be trying to get attention even if it is negative
xx

 

[PippaJ]

My Evie is always better behaved at nursery than at home. She spits her food out or has now started throwing it on the floor, will bang her trainer cup on anything so that the water comes out and rubs it in with her hands and also screams the house down if I leave the room to go upstairs etc.

All I get from nursery is she is so well behaved and happy and makes us all laugh!! I have thought that she must be happier there than at home but my friends have reassured me that kids are always better behaved for other people as Sam's Mum said, so I don't take it to heart.

I can understand how you feel though, and to have two so close in age must be hard at times, hang in there hun you're doing a fab job xx

Must also get that book as I've defo got the 'terrible two's' on the way

 

[Mamafy]

As you know my 2 throttled each other Funny I can laugh now They still fight but have settled, even my mum has noticed they do a fair bit of playing nicely with each other.

Our screaming has stopped now the stairgates aren't closed (don't have stairs) and sometimes I say the gate HAS to be closed (say for 20 minutes while I do something I can't watch them) they comply.

Have you tried naughty step? It's abit tedious if you have to do it 40 times a day but I defo thinks it works. I mainly use it for hitting, if madam pushes Joe she gets a warning then normally she does it again and she's straight on it ( I just use whatever room we're in and sit her in the corner) and I stay in the room and time her.

I can defintely say this is normal with 2 close in age but I can also say it does get better and don't ever think its you, its not They test the boundaries all the time

 

[Mervs Mum]

While I think it's normal I dont think you have to put up with it hun.

I'd say you need a strategy. You dont want it like this so you both have to work to turn it round. Kids are ALWAYS better for others but they shoudnt be completely different characters - that means they make a conscious choice to behave differently for you than for others eg nursery nurses. This means that they know right from wrong and know who they will get away with what with. They push it more with parents but I dont believe that means you should accept it.

You can reassert your authority without shouting etc. You just need to learn a new way that keeps you feeling in control and makes them realise they cant get away with it at nursery OR at home. It will be hard to start with if she's been carrying on like it for a while - she needs to alter her habits - but it's doable but you have to be consistent. Something like a book might be a good idea of giving you a starting point. Really praising the good behaviour balanced with keeping your cool when the unwanted behaviour starts and giving consistent consequences when they carry on.

I remember one person I know through the forums saying to me that I was too strict with Emily - we have no MSN, no Facebook, no loafing about the streets with no purpose - none of that. This person said that if I had tried to have the same rules with her when she was a teenager she would have left home or rebelled.....well so far it's worked - she's still here and she might pull a face but she knows when I say know I mean it. She's just gone to bed at almost 16 yrs old, no arguments, after sitting at the kitchen table revising for the last 3 hours solid ready for an exam that she is taking 1 year before she would do ordinarily. She's not a genius but she does as she's told and she works hard. She knows where she stands with me and what I think is acceptable behaviour and that's been the case since she was tiny. There have been moments when I have lost me cool with her but they are few and far between because it's not productive.

I never read a book but I would do if I thought it would help - maybe the one Lynn mentioned or something. I just know you HAVE to see things through or they will know if they push hard enough you will crack or give in for a quiet life.

 

[Wobbles]

I'm getting quite tired now so I'm going to come back a read this over again tomorrow ...thank you girls.

Lisa I'd be quite interested in some Lisa tips ...Your tone calms me Lisa Super Nanny?

 

[Sam's Mum]

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Toddler-Tamin...m&pt=UK_Baby_BabyBooks_RL&hash=item439f5ed5d8

 

[PippaJ]

While I think it's normal I dont think you have to put up with it hun.

I'd say you need a strategy. You dont want it like this so you both have to work to turn it round. Kids are ALWAYS better for others but they shoudnt be completely different characters - that means they make a conscious choice to behave differently for you than for others eg nursery nurses. This means that they know right from wrong and know who they will get away with what with. They push it more with parents but I dont believe that means you should accept it.

You can reassert your authority without shouting etc. You just need to learn a new way that keeps you feeling in control and makes them realise they cant get away with it at nursery OR at home. It will be hard to start with if she's been carrying on like it for a while - she needs to alter her habits - but it's doable but you have to be consistent. Something like a book might be a good idea of giving you a starting point. Really praising the good behaviour balanced with keeping your cool when the unwanted behaviour starts and giving consistent consequences when they carry on.

I remember one person I know through the forums saying to me that I was too strict with Emily - we have no MSN, no Facebook, no loafing about the streets with no purpose - none of that. This person said that if I had tried to have the same rules with her when she was a teenager she would have left home or rebelled.....well so far it's worked - she's still here and she might pull a face but she knows when I say know I mean it. She's just gone to bed at almost 16 yrs old, no arguments, after sitting at the kitchen table revising for the last 3 hours solid ready for an exam that she is taking 1 year before she would do ordinarily. She's not a genius but she does as she's told and she works hard. She knows where she stands with me and what I think is acceptable behaviour and that's been the case since she was tiny. There have been moments when I have lost me cool with her but they are few and far between because it's not productive.

I never read a book but I would do if I thought it would help - maybe the one Lynn mentioned or something. I just know you HAVE to see things through or they will know if they push hard enough you will crack or give in for a quiet life.

Sorry Wobbles - not trying to hijack your thread - MM could I ask how would you discipline a 15 month old? I do feel Evie knows right from wrong in some ways, but if I say no she usually laughs and trys even harder at whatever she is doing which is wrong. I don't lose my cool but I know I could if she pushed hard enough. Do you think Evie is at an age now when she should be learning 'no means no' and if so how do you inforce it at such a young age?

Sorry for asking but you've said some good stuff here and I'd like to think my Evie will be like your Emily when she's 16, I'm also a believer of the no MSN / out on the streets at night for definiate

 

[JJ Mum]

Hi wobbles, it all sounds completely normal to me, and was nothing you did or didn't do, so don't worry

I have two sons and 1 daughter, and fair play to you having two daugthers, they are truely a special case compared to sons!

I.f it makes you feel any better , my one is now 8 and doesn't go a day without screemign the house down , in public or yes still dropping to the floor in a supermarket(just does it with more style).
We have to deal with her with a zero tolerance type attitude or she is soo bolshy she would walk all over us and get even worse, so does this zero tolerance get us anywhere..... NO but nor does it get her anywhere. She will not be ground down, she will sit on that naughty step (yes at age 8) and she will sit there, and sit there, will she apologise? .....NO, thats not in her nature.

But do you know thijs last year I have realised that under there this is a sweet girl, that actually has low confidence and self esteem, and is dying to be loved all the time, so there must be something in that that's casuing this behavior.

Anyway, I will stop rambling about me, just wanted to show you, you are sooo not alone, and girls are a nightmare, you have two!

I would say , try to ignore the bad behavior, using the naughty step to exclude, but leave it at that, then reward even the smallest of good behaviors a one will lead to another once you have started.
as free prizes - try to give more control to her life,even at age 2. if she is good at breakfast - offer two choices of clothes that you have chozen, that way you win and she thinks wow I'm a big girl and yet you still have control really. Offer two time with mum activites, playdough, painting etc , get her cleaning with you when little ones asleep, she will love it, Briony loves to help me and feel big and useful.

just an idea from a mum who is still trying to find the right way to deal with her handfull, it's just finding a way that works for you and caitlyn

Perhaps she will not need to asert herself in such extreme ways if she feels more in control, just an idea - oh and mine will actually jump through hoops for a star chart!!! I think it was tesco or Smiths do a lovely magnetic one that can hang on the fridge, with spac to choose your own reward.

 

[Mervs Mum]

She will not be ground down, she will sit on that naughty step (yes at age 8) and she will sit there, and sit there, will she apologise? .....NO, thats not in her nature.

Dont take this the wrong way JJ, but if I were using a naughty step then she simply wouldnt come off till she apologised. If you are letting her off the step before she complies then she won! She wouldnt be ground down because she knows you WILL be. I would sit her there for hours if needs be waiting for the apology. Calmly going about my business, putting her back there if she moved, being consistent and seeing it through to the end. I know this is easy for me to say because it's not me in your shoes but the bottom line is, she didnt apologise and if that's what you wanted from her, she got the upper hand....and she knows it so when it's a battle of wits she know she just has to hang in there long enough.


Pippa - Hebe is 19 months just and I try not to use the word 'no'. I explain EVERYTHING. I want her to make her own concious decision not to do something because she knows it's not a good idea because it's dangerous or what ever - not because mummy says so. I want her to have her own internal dialogue, how ever simple, and reach the right conclusion on her own. I believe in time you can say 'look dont do that because I say so' but I think that comes many years down the line - more like 15 years than months!
I can say that to my eldest because she is old enough to truly have the internal dialogue on everything she does.
So I would explain why, even at this young age, you dont want her to do something. Keep your cool as youve said you do and explain. You might not think at this early age they understand but they do. I dont move ornaments or have a fire guard etc. I've repeatedly ask her not to do things and at first I wondered if it was going in but it does. My MIL thought I was nuts when I told her I didnt want her saying no. She said they need to learn no means no. That's not my approach. I because I dont yell no (or anything else for that matter!) at her, she's not learned to do that back to me. I have used the word no but only if she was in serious danger. That's the basis for everything I do with her. Not sure if that helps or I just rambled a lot

 

[Aidans Mummy]

MM

A question from me sorry

How would you handel smacking, biting etc. On a few occasions now I have been down at Aidan's level whilst explaining to him why I am not happy with his behaviour and he just smacks me in teh face or bites my wrist AND then giggles. When I try to tell him thats not nice it hurts. He just laugh and refuses to look at me making funny faces

ETA- Sorry wobbles
xx

 

[Mervs Mum]

What do you do when he laughs or repeats the behaviour? What are the consequences? There has to be a consequnce to his actions.....what happens next in that scenario AM?